In the Tornado event I talked about in an earlier post, there were four or five teams that insisted the wind was less than five, but we recorded the wind speeds constantly and kept a record on the score sheet.
Then they argued that we were taking wind speeds from the top of the RC boat's mast and winds speeds up there were much higher than on the water. Geesh! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
In this case the RC won and the race stood. We ran the race according to the class' rules.., and suddenly they did not like their own rules.
Rick

I was being facetious however; in winds less the 5kt (all things being equal) I'd tend to disagree. Would you care to elaborate on your assertion.. Very best.

The extra weight tends to keep the boat moving through sea irregularities where as lighter weight tend to "bob" more and the boat slows more often. In really light weather, a heavy weight crewed boat tends to "carry" through a tack better due to their inertia, where as a light weight crew can often "pull up" half way through the tack.

Tom,

Yes I agree. 5kt min for a 3+ day event. IMHO, I would rather sit on the beach and have a beer (or 12) with you than sit and bake all week on a hot boat.

Upper limit. Well.... I'm a bad one to ask a/b that. I'll go out if it's blowing dogs off the chains (and like it!). I had a "fairly accomplished" skipper tell me, "I can't trust you to decide when to go out and when not to... you're never scared and will go out in anything" He was right.

Hi Tom et al,

Sue sailed a hell of a race, so did alot of guys and girls(Sandra), and the competition was top notch here. No doubt light air sailing is a bitch, but its part of sailing, especially where I live in the "Armpit" of the South. 100 degrees, 100% humidity and you can always bet on "light and variable".
My opinion on light air would be with you, keep the 5 kt rule, unless it looks like a light and variable weekend, or even that forecast for a week long event.
My problem with the race that was thrown out is that the PRO said he beieved it was 5kts, and nobody complained on the starting line that it was not 5 kts, everyone was moving around, battens popping over by themselves, no protest at the start, everyone just glad to get a race in after a long day of nothing.
After the race, when the positions were shook up, then you hear the complaints of it was too light to start. Who had an advantage? It was a clean race sailed within the time limit, no one left in any holes bobbing around with no air, so we throw it out on a technical point?
I think there should have been a protest or someway to ask up front before the race started if these protesting boats felt there was not 5 kts, not when you see how you did.
This is my humble opinion, and I was there, and I feel there was 5 kts of wind at every mark. The SI's clearly stated "5kts as determined by the RC".I sail in 5kts every weekend, I think I am a good judge of light and variable, and that is my how I voiced my opinion in redress.
I dont think the RC or the competitors did anything wrong, it was perfectly legal to protest the way they did, but I do beleive it was poor sportsmanship.
Again, this is just my opinion, and its way biased.

Thanks to Tracie, the RC, Mark Santorelli, Brian Karr and crew, and all the new friends I made there this week, I had a blast, hope to see you next year(with wind!!!!)

Let me ask the question,

Should the onus be on the RC to prove that there WAS at least 5 knots of wind, or should it be on the protesters to prove that there was NOT.

I know what I think.

If the RC decide that the conditions are suitable to race, there should be no futher discussion. I.e. in my view the RC's decision is final. The sailors can decide whether thay want to race, but not question the RC's decision just because it does not suit them!

That's how the SI's were worded too. I'm still in a bit of shock that the race wasn't reinstated.

If the SI's say 5 knots as determined by the RC, then the RC needs to have a way to confirm and record thier desicion as Rick did. I recall reading in the BLOG that the RC read 4.7 knots before that race. If that is the case then the race should be thrown out per the rules. It's about expectations. This past weekend we sailed at a small mountain lake. We know going in that it will be light and shifty and no one would even consider questioning the RC.
At a week long National event(in the ocean) there is no reason to push it when there already had been 5 complete races when the race in question occured. As for heavy teams having an advantage in heavy air, thats old school. The best H16 teams are at minimum weight and do the best in all conditions. The sailors have figured out how to rig and drive the boats in all conditions.

thats pure crap.

if the RC conducts the race, then the protesting body needs to present irrefutable evidence that the race violated some kind of rule.

Just like in the legal system, the onus is on the prosecuter to provide enough evidence to convict.

Speaking of crew weights, we weighed in at 344 #'s, min wt for F18 is 330 for large sailplan. There were only 5 teams heavier than us, and the 5 heavier teams were not the ones protesting.
Just a note of interest about the class, our boat is 1 yr old, and there are already new rudders, new mast and new sails available. The STX main is pretty sweet too, along with the new Tiger spin that Greg and Jacque were using. (Just for fun try to order a blue one....)
Any advantage? Hard to tell, but its a cutting edge class, exactly where this kind of sailing should be, advancing the techmology for all of us.

That recording was not at the 'start' of the race, it is Marks 'last recorded' wind speed. Due to my injury, I became the beach captain. Mark specifically stated time and time again that as soon as he got 5 knot readings he was starting them. When the wind began to show signs of increasing, he had me send them out to the course because he wanted to be ready to start as soon as he got 5 knots. And that is exactly what he did.

As the event director, I am embarrassed that the RC's judgment was not final. I am also embarrassed that the jury based their decision on previous results (YUP!) and competitors comments, who were not only sailing, but sailing in current, and claiming it was not 5 knots. How absurd is that?

Tracie

It was explained to us that the judges felt that there was less than 5k of wind using sailor testimony (the 7 that filled for redress in a closed hearing), using times around the 2+ mile course, and based on the fact that the RC could not prove that there was in excess of 5 knots of breeze at all marks of the course. The rule reads:

race must have 5 knots of breeze at all marks of the course at the time of the start "as determined by the Race Committee".

Note that it doesn't say he has to prove it. It doesn't say he has to take readings at every mark using digital equipment. Note it doesn't say "as determined by the judges" or "as determined by the sailors". The Pro could lick his finger, stick it in the air, and start a race if he felt he had more than 5 knots and the breeze was consistent around the course. Also note that while he could not prove that there was more than 5 knots of wind at the start of the race, he could not prove there was less than 5. He did state that he felt that he had 5 knots or better based on the wind line that filled in and readings he had taken earlier. Also presented as evidence was readings from a Reynolds 33 moured just off the beach who had readings from 6k to 10k for the whole race. Also note that times around the course are irrelivant (even if you could accurately figure in chop and current effects) because the rule stated "at the start of a race". So basically the race was tossed because 7 teams felt there wasn't enough wind somehow they got three judges to side with them.

It's 308 lb (140kg) min crew weight for the big sail plan if you carry corrector weights for the difference between crew weight and 330lb (150 kg).

Just in case any potential F18 sailors are put off by the need to supersize their meals to make min weight

Chris.

11.5 Minimum wind conditions: No race will be started in fewer than 5 knots of wind at all marks of the course as determined by the Race Committee.

I have to wonder why you would call my comments "crap". A jury of what I assume are seasoned judges made a desicion based on testimony of sailors and the written rules. Thats why they are asked to come to events. What probably needs to be addressed is that the SI's should either eliminate the statement about the 5 Knots or add to it and explain how to determine it. With the electronic equipment available, it should be easy to take and record readings and bring them to any hearing that takes place.

Thanks Chris, it is 308-330( or really 286-330 for category 2), with min. being 308. Sorry for any confusion.

**** in every meaning of the word.

Pat makes a good point - the SI was a bad one, and far too easy to abuse from either side. It was dropped.

There are raw feelings on both sides of this issue, and a happy resolution is impossible. The RC and PC made errors - let that repeating lesson be taken to heart; If you're going to the room, be prepared for disappointment, no matter how right you are.

To stop any further rumors - there will be no appeal, but the Appeals Committee is collecting information on the ruling for "educational purposes." Maybe you'll see this case in a judges' class... it is not considered a sterling example of good judgement.

So - let it drop. Let's get back to the thread topic and not the circumstance that precipitated it:

Light air sailing is, in my opinion as a race organizer and official, an important tool to have in the box. I'm not in favor of any such limitations on how I run races. I'm definitely not convinced that "under five" is "unfair" or not a true test of skill. Separate the issues of "shifty" or "wildly shifty" from the discussion of "light." The race we're talking about was light and square - that's a fair test of skill. It's the wildly shifty races, where the 'chutes come out on the way to A-pin, that need to be abandoned.

"dropping"