Actually, I'm more anti-tax cut for balanced budget reasons, though I do believe that we need a strong safety net, a just savings and investing environment, a strong defense adequate to all real threats and energy independence.

Our $8 trillion debt is also a national security threat with nations that we do not consider friendly buying up our debt leading to a very real possibility of economic warfare. In the last three years, foreign nations and individuals have bought up 80 percent of the increase in debt to a level of 37 percent of the total debt. China holds about 10 percent of the foreign debt. Those are '03 numbers and the debt hasn't gotten any smaller. I don't consider that a good thing.

Our energy dependence emerged as a national security threat in the early '70s and the situation has degenerated since then with the Iran embassy hostages, playing Iraq off against Iran, Gulf War I, 9/11, Afghanistan and Iraq. Fortunately, some of the conservative thinking heads have come to realize, 30 years after the war started, that energy dependence is a national security threat and have decided to start driving hybrids. One thing to remember, Jimmy Carter's "Malaise" speech was not just a commentary on American confidence (which he held to, btw) it was a declaration of war on OPEC and energy dependence. Yet it was derided as weak and pessimistic. Live and learn. Also like Carter, I'm pro-nuclear energy.

So as long as so-called conservatives are going to expose our nation to these threats with bad foreign policy, a worse economic policy, all wrapped up in a pratically treasonous energy policy, then call me a liberal.

Does this thread have any relevant info anymore besides who can out-bicker everyone? Please talk politics on another sites' forum.

BC

I'll see your "bravo" and raise you an "end social security, medicare, and military spending". If you want to get into a pissing contest over who wants smaller government and lower taxes, bring it on.

But put your money where your mouth is. The Bush administration and GOP-led Congress have squandered more per year in absolute deficit spending than any administration in history. My taxes have gone down only marginally, at the expense of enormous debts that we the taxpayers will have to pay for later. What they call "privitization" boils down to spending MORE tax dollars on corporate-buddy subsidization (look at CAFTA and the $500 billion medicare bill, good god...) The trade deficit is at a record, the dollar is in the toilet. We don't just have Bush to thank for this: we have the Americans who voted the GOP into a majority in every branch of government.

Now if you want to talk about how abortion is sinful, or how God is on Bush's side, or how you "just trust him", fine with me. If you think the USA *should* be a taxpayer-funded world-policing empire, go Republican. But if you want to talk small, transparent government, it's time to stop defending the GOP. Even if you don't support so-called liberals, at least vote enough of them in to overturn the GOP majority in 1 house of congress and end 1-party rule.

Katrina gets my emotions high, partly because it's such an incredible disaster and I have the sense (right or wrong) that Bush just isn't treating it seriously - as opposed to 9/11 which he continually used as justification for every military venture and government-expanding bill he backed.

But you're right - this isn't the forum for a rant. To those whose lives were affected by Katrina, I wish them the best, do not begrudge them my tax dollars, and will help out by making sporadic donations in supermarkets. I will continue working and (hopefully) sailing.

The bigger question is how did we get here? How did we get from a country that owned its own money to one that rents it from a private, for profit, unaccountable group of foriegn investors? The Dems who hatched this monster called the "Federal Reserve Bank" did it to facilitate socialist policies of gov't handouts, which are unconstitutional because of the taxing/funding clause in the constitution. With a 'flexible' money system, you can get around this pesky little clause.

Steve you are confusing the national debt (which can NEVER be repaid) with the annual budget deficit, which can be balanced by matching spending with revenues. Two different things. Deficits are a part of a flexible monetary system, which monetizes debt as currency.

To get a grip on how large a deficit actually is, you have to compare it to GNP or GDP. In that context, todays deficits are not very large. During the second world war years, the government spent on average 157% of GDP on the war effort. These were the largest deficits ever, even though by numbers they were smaller.

The national debt (different thing, remember) has ALWAYS been owned by foreigners. Mostly old British and German super wealthy families. Recently (back in the 80's, IIRC) some of the European investors sold out to a group of Japanese investors.

This particular topic can get very deep and scary. It is definitely a 'rabbit hole'. Follow it if you dare. If you do, you'll likely change your views of 'liberals' and 'conservatives' real vs hidden agendas completely and forever.

Jimbo

~yawn~

AMEN Jake and Bob,

I leave this discussion with this.


A few truths, for those who have ears and eyes and care to know the truth:


1.) The hurricane that hit New Orleans and Mississippi and Alabama was an astonishing tragedy. The suffering and loss of life and peace of mind of the residents of those areas is acutely horrifying.


2.) George Bush did not cause the hurricane. Hurricanes have been happening for eons. George Bush did not create them or unleash this one.


3.) George Bush did not make this one worse than others. There have been far worse hurricanes than this before George Bush was born.


4.) There is no overwhelming evidence that global warming exists as a man-made phenomenon. There is no clear-cut evidence that global warming even exists. There is no clear evidence that if it does exist it makes hurricanes more powerful or makes them aim at cities with large numbers of poor people. If global warming is a real phenomenon, which it may well be, it started long before George Bush was inaugurated, and would not have been affected at all by the Kyoto treaty, considering that Kyoto does not cover the world's worst polluters -- China, India, and Brazil. In a word, George Bush had zero to do with causing this hurricane. To speculate otherwise is belief in sorcery.


6.) George Bush had nothing to do with the hurricane contingency plans for New Orleans. Those are drawn up by New Orleans and Louisiana. In any event, the plans were perfectly good: mandatory evacuation. It is in no way at all George Bush's fault that about 20 percent of New Orleans neglected to follow the plan. It is not his fault that many persons in New Orleans were too confused to realize how dangerous the hurricane would be. They were certainly warned. It's not George Bush's fault that there were sick people and old people and people without cars in New Orleans. His job description does not include making sure every adult in America has a car, is in good health, has good sense, and is mobile.


7.) George Bush did not cause gangsters to shoot at rescue helicopters taking people from rooftops, did not make gang bangers rape young girls in the Superdome, did not make looters steal hundreds of weapons, in short make New Orleans into a living hell.



8.) George Bush is the least racist President in mind and soul there has ever been and this is shown in his appointments over and over. To say otherwise is scandalously untrue.


9.) George Bush is rushing every bit of help he can to New Orleans and Mississippi and Alabama as soon as he can. He is not a magician. It takes time to organize huge convoys of food and now they are starting to arrive. That they get in at all considering the lawlessness of the city is a miracle of bravery and organization.


10.) There is not the slightest evidence at all that the war in Iraq has diminished the response of the government to the emergency. To say otherwise is pure slander.


11.) If the energy the news media puts into blaming Bush for an Act of God worsened by stupendous incompetence by the New Orleans city authorities and the malevolence of the criminals of the city were directed to helping the morale of the nation, we would all be a lot better off.


12.) New Orleans is a great city with many great people. It will recover and be greater than ever. Sticking pins into an effigy of George Bush that does not resemble him in the slightest will not speed the process by one day.


13.) The entire episode is a dramatic lesson in the breathtaking callousness of government officials at the ground level. Imagine if Hillary Clinton had gotten her way and they were in charge of your health care.


God bless all of those dear people who are suffering so much, and God bless those helping them, starting with George Bush. .

Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly Hills and Malibu. He also writes "Ben Stein's Diary" in every issue of The American Spectator.

--ALL I CAN SAY IS, "AMEN, BEN" !

Bob Kimsey



UPDATE: Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005, 2:13 p.m.:

More Mysteries of Katrina:

Why is it that the snipers who shot at emergency rescuers trying to save people in hospitals and shelters are never mentioned except in passing, and Mr. Bush, who is turning over heaven and earth to rescue the victims of the storm, is endlessly vilified?

What church does Rev. Al Sharpton belong to that believes in passing blame and singling out people by race for opprobrium and hate?

What special abilities does the media have for deciding how much blame goes to the federal government as opposed to the city government of New Orleans for the aftereffects of Katrina?

If able-bodied people refuse to obey a mandatory evacuation order for a city, have they not assumed the risk that ill effects will happen to them?

When the city government simply ignores its own sick and hospitalized and elderly people in its evacuation order, is Mr. Bush to blame for that?

Is there any problem in the world that is not Mr. Bush's fault, or have we reverted to a belief in a sort of witchcraft where we credit a mortal man with the ability to create terrifying storms and every other kind of ill wind?

Where did the idea come from that salvation comes from hatred and criticism and mockery instead of love and co-operation?


Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly Hills and Malibu. He also writes "Ben Stein's Diary" in every issue of The American Spectator.

[color:"red"] nuff said. [/color]

Bob -

Just because GW (2) didn't cause the hurricane, (4) didn't single-handedly start global warming, (6) wasn't responsible for contingency planning in New Orleans, (7) didn't snipe rescue workers, (8) isn't (outwardly) racist, (9) is making face time for news cameras, and (13) isn't Hillary Clinton... does NOT mean he is a good leader, nor that his policies have made life easier for victims in the short or long term. And I'd probably trust Hillary more with my health care at this point; at least her $500 billion medicare bill and version of CAFTA would never actually get through Congress, since she's a Democrat and despised by conservative males across America (I actually put her in the same category as Bush: a politician and a FRAUD. But she's an impotent one, whereas he's president.)

(10) Is it slander to say that the corps of engineers were underfunded by the feds, so that money could be shifted into the presidential budget and wasted in Iraq? It may not be pretty, but it's true, and it happened under Bush's watch.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/12540178.htm
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/12576898.htm

>>Sticking pins into an effigy of George Bush that does not >>resemble him in the slightest will not speed the process by one day.

True... but it would make a lot of people feel better to see some justice hammered out, even if the person didn't actually do the ill deed. Look what happened to Saddam Hussein (good riddance too). Barring that, some voodoo pins will do quite nicely

Cheers!

The whole mess is brought about by the politicians WE elect. Bush can not do anything alone! The bills that he approved were put forth by the the two houses of gov't below him. He just approved what spending was put before him. Right or wrong it all started below him. Namely at our state level. Obviously those projects didn't rate the pet budgeting as did others. BTW, what happened before Bush? Even if his term would have not have cut the budget as you all say, the work should have been started a decade ago... lets see who would that have been? But, even though the previous admin was not high on my list it wasn't their fault something didn't get done here in Louisiana. Lets say the BUCK STOPS HERE! And I'll also say I didn't vote for the current Governor then and most certainly won't now.

So instead of pointing fingers, whats say some of you guys (and gals) come on down and help clean up. Otherwise keep to the mess in your own back yard.

I vote to oust all current politicians and start over.

Clayton D.
Independant (cause thats what I am)

Clayton, I'm 100% with you.

We really have ourselves to blame for the mess we're in. My gripe is less a personal one with Bush, and more against the corruption and absurd priorities of 1-party rule dictated by powerful lobbyists, buddy industries, and special interests from all over the political spectrum - very few of which truly have the interests of the general public at heart. As a result, we have no fiscal responsibility, no transparency, no accountability.

The best we can hope for in our skewed 2-party system is a balanced government in which Dems and GOP are headlocked, and third parties can hope to take root. Instead, America has voted its "values" and put the McParty in power everywhere. I'm not saying this to dump on Republicans; if the Democrats controlled all branches of government it would be just as bad.

I'll second the immediate ouster of all current politicians. We should follow by abolishing political parties, and making presidential elections dependent on popular vote. And I also agree that the root of the problem is at the state and local level, where citizen involvement has been replaced by the opinions of a few idealogues and cronies in positions of authority. We have a lot of cleanup to do here in Utah. Not as much as Louisiana, but a lot.

Aaron
Independent libertarian, sick of 1-party rule, blind loyalties, and political parties in general.

OK, hey anyone want to go sailing!!!! My Stiletto 27 can hold quite a few. Of course we won't go as fast as the smaller cats but hey I can carry a lot of beer!

Peace,
Clayton

Clayton, I wish I could get away to take you up on that invitation! Sounds fantastic!

Ok, you can check this out. Budget cutting keeps coming up. Here is a FACT. The Army corp. of Engineers budget for LA. is 1.9 BILLION. Who do you think gets more?.....no one. CA. is second with about 1.3 billion.

I just can't let this go. Someone smack me.

Ok, now I see. A PhD. student. Check back after you've spent some time in the real world.

Libertarian = fantasy land.

Enough of the political BS.

Clayton, I really appreciate your sense of "self responsibility". I am not a Bush fan, but I hate to hear all the blame game and finger pointing. This event is larger and more complex than anyone imagined. Aperson or agency could never wrap thier mind around something of this magnitude and deploy help.

God Bless the victims, help those that can survive.

Sounds like a winner! I'll borrow my neighbors Stiletto 30 - it can carry 8-10 more people - and enough booze that you won't care about going slower than a beach cat.

listen people.

the pooh-bah says you need to stfu about all this politics stuff. The pooh-bah likes chatting about matters of economics, fiscal responsibility and government spending as much as the other guy, but the pooh-bah will NOT tolerate the infection of politics into his cat sailing.

So speaks the pooh-bah. mmmk?

Seniority or.....Dung-Head has it's perks.

ALL HAIL! (aaaa haaa!)

FYI,

this type of discussion is why I've stopped posting on SA.

Ed can't separate his hatred for our current administration from his sailing.

Just go read the front page today and you'll see it for yourself :P

Anybody know the bouyancy numbers on the front third of a Hobie 16 hull???

BC

>>**** fed to us by National Review. Unfortunately, the GOP isn't any more interested in lessening the size of government than the Dems, just in "lowering expectations."

Also, could I see a source for those figures on the LA corps of engineers? Regardless, the cat 3 capacity of the levees proved inadequate.