Mary,

"Okay, ...but what I don't understand is why you guys capsize in the first place. It's really not necessary, you know."

Mary, I took that as kinda tongue in cheek. Was my assumption correct?

Daniel

no - she claims to have never actually capsized a catamaran all that time sailing with Rick!

To a certain extent... if you don't capsize every once in a while you aren't pushing yourself hard enough. Am I right?
Sort of like skiing. If you dont fall every once in a while you are not "testing your limit" so to speak.

Capsizing is necessary, because where else are you gonna find a $10,000+ 8.5 foot tall swim platform that'll catapult you so far?
Trey
N20 873
Layline Rigging
www.velocitysailing.com

exactly.. still waiting for my investment to pitchpole

So you're, like, NOT TRYING HARD ENOUGH!

Jake, I said I have never pitchpoled. Rick and I capsized maybe 3 or 4 times, but it was always due to pilot or crew error. Certainly wasn't "necessary." (Well, one of those times it wasn't our fault -- it was caused by the low-flying helicopter that was taking photos of our fleet for a condo promo video.)

I also have never gone flying forward around the forestay, and I don't feel as though I have missed out on some great sailing experience. That, also, is something that is not necessary and shows a lack of survival instinct on the part of the crew.

As we all know, some boats are harder to keep upright than others, but that just means you have to have a higher skill level and better mental concentration on those boats.

I can understand if somebody feels it necessary to learn the outer limits of their boat's potential by pitchpoling once and capsizing once or twice. But once you know where those limits are, why do it any more?

I get the impression that some of you guys think capsizing and pitchpoling are fun. If that's the case, go for it. Fun is important.

Rick and I were more interested in winning races. As many people have pointed out on these forums, winning races means eliminating as many mistakes as possible around the course. A capsize or pitchpole is a VERY major mistake.

Having said all that, I admit that I expect to pitchpole one of these days on my Hobie Wave, because it is a short boat and it has no traveler and has no boom, so no way to have a boom vang. I know how to jibe without pitchpoling, but one of these times in heavy air, I am going to gamble that if I do it the fast way, I can move up from 4th to 3rd place. So I will pitchpole, and end up DFL.

But at least I will be able to say to the people who won the trophies, "You guys just weren't trying hard enough."

OOhhhh...OK. That makes more sense! I know you guys are good but no capsizes ~ever~ would put you at deity status!

When I started sailing, capsizing (or the pitchpole) was part of the excitement. By all means we wanted to avoid it but it was part of the challenge/risk that fueled my interest in the sport...I spent a lot of time in the water. Since then, I'm happy to report that we are one of the more stable teams out there and are usually the last to capsize...which has definitely contributed to more top finishes.

I've believe it to be a good idea for crew retention purposes to NOT send them around the forestay too often.

I've actually found (probably because I'm not a "rock star") that is is actually a bit hard to pitchpole my N20, unless there is steep surf/chop. The bows drive down (solid water over the beam), but that ends up slowing the boat to the point that IF the crew and myself stay on the boat, it will either pop back up, or tip over on its side. Only when the crew goes around the forestay does it roll more on its face than its side. More like a slow-motion flip than one of those nasty H16 pitchpoles.

I did something like a pitchpole last year at Tradewinds. You know, one of those "MAN, we're going to kick butt now - we're the only ones left with a spin up", followed by what seemed to be a hypersonic jump past a handful of boats, and then the bows looking for buried treasure at the bottom of Blackwater sound.

My excuse was that I needed my crew to check the luff curve (from the other direction) on the spinnaker. Since no one was hurt and no significant damage (other than a big glop of mud on the snuffer and mast tip), it actually turned out quite humorous (except for the DNF part)

Of course, I will tend to agree with Mary that pitchpoling probably won't win a lot of races, which sort of kills some of the "fun factor" of racing.

I agree with you Mary. My wife and I sailed/raced casually for 10 or so years on my TheMightyHobie18 and never once did I capsize it with her on the boat so it can be done. Sure an argument can be made for not pushing hard enough but we pushed as hard as we could. I knew the limits of my boat and kept it under that. It made for a much happier and returning crew. Of course my incintive was that a threat on other things I like was laid out in the event I did capsize . BTW over the years we have accumulated our share of trophies, just enough to keep it interesting.

Of course now with a Stiletto 27 there is another incentive to keep it upright.

Keep the pointed side up!

Clayton
S27/H16

In the years sailing my H-18 before I started racing, I never capsized. My crew was my wife (not wife at the time), and we tended to blast reach back and forth accross the Bay, trapped from the wings. I always felt if we capsized that might end the fun, since our levels of tolerance for "adventure" is a bit different!

When I started racing the capsizes have still been few, and have mostly been in that moment of innattention when you think things are calm and the gust comes. I've seen just how far underwater without capsizing a Hobie-18 and Hobie-20 can go on a good downwind leg. And when you're in that complete light air mode a small gust can just carry you over...

I've gotten to do the high-fly wire act once - on a mark rounding on the H-20 I got flung before I could come in, took the trip around the headstay but miraculously the boat turned downwind and depowered on its own and never capsized. I did the pendulum thing before finally getting back on board and continuing on. It was actually fun, kind of the surreal "out of boat" experience - great high level view of the boat you don't normally get. I don't plan on doing again, however.

The fellow I bought my 6.0 from told me that there was never any excuse for somebody to capsize a 6.0. Those words were echoing in my ears as we pitchpoled last year. Communication thing, I was trying to get us to move back on the boat as I was about to turn it up into a beam reach from a broad reach. Crew stayed in broad reach wild thing mode, moved down low and forward as I turn up. Knit one, pearl two. The nearby A-Catters got a kick out of seeing that.

The best ones have been after a race, when we're just noodling and congratulating each other for a good effort, and the sheets are out of our hands and we're not paying attention. Here comes the gust... I've capsized a couple times after races, once at the beginning.

Still, for racing I think you save time on the course avoiding it! Sure makes for great stories at the bar, though.

Now that you mention it, I think I dropped my boat at a starting line once. Pushed into a bad tactical situation and a gust hit. Needless to say, the PRO was amused.

There is a benefit to capsizing (not while racing) in that you do need to practice the skills to right the boat if you're ever in trouble...

When I learned to sail solo (around 7 I guess), I was required to flip/right any boat I wanted to go out in before I was given the stick. I think I started with a Sunfish before moving to the H-17

It may be unnecessary, but often unavoidable. This weekend we are racing in Rehobeth. At the 98 and 03 H16 Nationals in Rehobeth if you were out on Thursday it was a more a matter of how many times you would flip than if. In 98 the sailors were talking about the huricane at A mark. The mark boat was recording 38 knots. Try and turn downwind in that. This years event had wind at about 20 knots and some of the best sailors in the world pitch poled down wind in big waves. It happens.

Watch out for sandbars on laylines. Wipeout good enough and you might actually have it named after you.

So where IS the Freak of Nature sandbar?

Trey and I learned this lesson hard enough :P

Casey's reef is a nice 10' x 10' ankle deep spit located just off P'cola beach on the inside. Word is, it's still there even after all the action lately.

I have to say that the odd capsize in going to happen.

I'd split mine up as follows

Pilot error - wild gybe in lots of wind when I over rotated and just blew over.....
Pilot error - too much plate down with the kite up - splash
Pilot error - I'll just keep the kite up a wee bit longer to catch that F18 / lap that 49er again etc

Other factors like people splashing in front of you and you have to take violent avoiding action.


But the ideal place for capsizing is when you are out training so you can learn the limits without loosing race places.

I would say that if you tip it in going up wind you really are not concentrating properly....

I wish I could have convinced that storm front at the F18 North Americans that pitch poling us like that was so not necessary.

Mary,

I have never capsized going up wind or took a trip around the forestay.
I've raced with Dennis for over five years now and we have pitch poled two times. Once because we really did push it going down wind, double-trapped chute up, and the other time was the storm front incident; beyond our control.
Other than that, we usually only turn the boat over once a year.

Tracie

Like the F18 North Americas, sometimes mother nature sometimes just decides you are going over.

My last bad flip was freak breaking wave that just blew me off the boat. It's the only time I have seen a catamaran from about 5 ft up and 3 ft aft of the stern.

I watched mother nature pick up the 3 lead boats in a race and throw them bow first into the water just as hard as she could. I went from 4th to 1st on the last leg.

Last spring, I tacked and A-Class from the wire and then tacked back without changing directions. It happened so fast all I got out was oh-sh!

Never forget the wind is a lot bigger and bad'er than you are.