An old BIM 16 SPI was the first 16 footer on corrected time at the Round Tiengemeten Regatta in Holland. The Italian boat got an excellent 22th place out of the 184 catamarans at the start.

Full details at:
http://www.hellecat.nl/rondetiengem...totaal_rtg05.html?file=totaal_rtg05.html

Surely this is not a "real" F16?
Can someone explain the big difference in rating? (113 vs 102).
The rest of the F16 fleet didnt do so well. I got a real nice closeup look of the Blade though, it looks nice from the front

IMHO, With a rating of 102, which is the same as the F18s, you would have to sail like crazy to get a good result.

This years Ronde Tiengemeente is a remarkable one. I've been looking at the final score list.

First some general specs :

185 entries (boats !)
183 finishers
ONLY 2 DNF's

Competing were :

70 F18's
23 F20's
10 A-cats

3 F16's (or 4 F16's if you count the Spitfire) 4
4 Hobie 16's (+ 1 Prindle 16) (so 3 + 1 + 4 + 1 = 9 "16" footers in total)

9 dart 18's (Making the Dart 18 class bigger than the H16 class by a factor of 2 !)

3 FX-ones
2 I-17's


The Bim 16 + spi is a boat I know. The former owner modified it to F16 specs. This Bim 16 has the 8.5 mtr alu mast and so it falls fully within the F16 rule framework that disallows the much younger 9 mtr masts. They had a new mainsail made for it in 2003 (I believe) of full F16 area. This one (14.85 sq. mtr.) is larger than the original sail that came with the boat which was just an A-cat mainsail of 13.5 sq. mtr. This Bim boat however still sails without a jib. So it is a mainsail + spi boat only. And in that light Martien Kooijman and Frank Van Marle did very well.

Actually the Stealth F16 sailed by Bard Louis and Lonneke Stark had just beaten them to the line by exactly 90 seconds after a shy 3 hours of sailing. So on F16 terms, meaning first over the line wins, Martien and Frank came second but they really showed their skill to do so without a jib. You have my respect, guys !

Martien and Frank raced off a handicap number that was compensated for sailing without a jib. This allows them to sail about 11 % slower than a true F16 and this lead to a corrected 2 nd place overall in the open class for boats with a handicap of 105 and higher (of which the other F16's were not part as they sailed of 102)

If all were sailing of the F16 class rating (102 = equal to F18) then both Martien/Frank (Bim)and Bard/Lonneke (Stealth) would be close together at about 14th spot in the 27 boat big open fleet for fast (and therefor spinnaker equipped) cats.

I can't tell you much about the conditions I was not there. I did hear from another crew that the wind died later in the race. Hopefully some of the competitors can entlight us with respect to the conditions.

Another interesting outcome is that 3 A-cats have taken the first 3 placings in the combined overall results listing of all 182 boats. In these days of spinnaker boats this doesn't happen that often anymore.

Wouter

Actually it is. See my other post in this thread. It complies with all our F16 rules and it has an entlarged F16 size mainsail. This modification actually places this Bim 16 out of its own One-design class; it was modified to be an F16. The rating difference, however, is caused by the fact that it is sailed doublehanded without a jib. Texel rating system then predicts an 11 % performance loss.





Well, that isn't exactly the whole honest picture is it ?

Indeed the Blade F16 crew scored a undoubtably bad result, but they were outperformed by 30 minutes by the other 2 F16's as well ! And these F16's were also 15 minutes ahead of you, while you were sailing a boat with a rating of only 105 yourself = not to far of 102 that the F16 carries, I say. Would you claim that any sailor would have to sail like crazy to get a good result on the FX-one ? Especially since you still needed to have sailed faster by respectively 10 and 16 minutes to correct out over these two F16's ? Actually BOTH of these F16's could both have sailed of a texel rating of 96 (=rating of Inter-20) and STILL correct out ahead over you.


I think a better intepretation of the situation is that something happened during the race that caused that Blade F16 to put in a remarkable bad result while the others (including the FX-ones and I-17's) did more or less what was to be expected considering their various crew skills.


Here are the sorted results between your own open singlehanded fleet (only the faster designs) and the F16's

elapsed time :

-1- 2:52:24 Nacra 18sq + SPI - rating = 99
-2- 2:58:02 [color:"red"]F16 - rating = 102 [/color]
-3- 2:58:18 Hobie FX one - rating = 105
-4- 2:59:32 [color:"red"]Bim 16 SPI - rating = 113 [/color] (fully F16 compliant, but sailing without a jib)
-5- 3:03:34 Hobie FX one - rating 105
-6- 3:13:28 Hobie FX one - rating = 105
-7- 3:09:57 Nacra Inter 17 - rating = 110
-8- 3:25:16 Spitfire - rating = 105 (sailed solo but kept rating for doublehanded sailing)
-9- 3:26:05 [color:"red"]F16 - Rating = 102 [/color]
-10- 3:33:43 Nacra Inter 17 - rating = 110


On corrected time :

-1- 2:38:53 [color:"red"]Bim 16 SPI - rating = 113 [/color] (fully F16 compliant, but sailing doublehanded without a jib)
-2- 2:49:49 Hobie FX one - rating = 105
-3- 2:52:41 Nacra Inter 17 - rating = 110
-4- 2:54:08 Nacra 18sq + SPI - rating = 99
-5- 2:54:33 [color:"red"]F16 - rating = 102 [/color]
-6- 2:54:50 Hobie FX one - rating 105
[color:"green"]-/- 2:55:03 Bim 16 spi if it had been sailing of the F16 class rating = 102, despite sailing doublehanded without a jib)[/color]
-7- 3:04:15 Hobie FX one - rating = 105
-8- 3:14:17 Nacra Inter 17 - rating = 110
-9- 3:15:30 Spitfire - rating = 105 (sailed solo but kept rating for doublehanded sailing)
-10- 3:22:03 [color:"red"]F16 - Rating = 102 [/color]



To fully appreciate the result by Martien and Frank you'll need to note that they were sailing a boat doublehanded with the same mainsail area, spi area and mast height as the FX-one, both sailing without a jib. In addition they had less hull length, less width and more overall weight (boat+crew) than the singlehanded FX-one and the winds were light. Now compare the ELAPSED times again. I call that an achievement.


(and that is what this thread should be about; Martien and Frank I think I owe you a couple of beers, despite the fact that you didn't beat a sloop rigged F16 to the line when sailing cat rigged doublehanded; I consider your result close enough to make good on my promise from 2003)

Wouter

Why didn't you race Wouter? It is obviously an important event. Now that your boat is so finely tuned you would have undoubtedly put in a better showing than the other F16s.

And he only lives half an hour away, I actually had to drive two full hours to get there And yes the Bim did do very well. But I do think you will agree with me that the configuration they used was not standard F16 (two-up unirig, or is this normal?), which is fine since they where sailing in the Open class.

< The rating difference, however, is caused by the fact that it is sailed doublehanded without a jib. Texel rating system then predicts an 11 % performance loss >.

Wouter

can you explain us why the same does not apply to other Unirig cats such as the 18HT and the M20, just to name a few?

Tony,

What is this ?




The actual distance from my house to the event site is 96,4 km. From my sailing club in Zandvoort, were I keep my boat as you very well know, to the event site is 110,1 km. (used a route planner to get this data)

You want me to cover that distance (say 100 km) in 30 minutes !

[color:"red"]!! AT 200 KM/HOUR !! [/color] , while dragging a boat trailer behind my 14 year old Toyota starlet !!!???

You are aware that we have a maximum speed limit of 80 km/hour here in the Netherlands for cars pulling trailers ?

You on the other hand keep your boat at 150 km from the event side, but required TWO FULL HOURS to cover that distance. At an average speed of (ONLY ?) about 75 km/hour.

Why am I subjected to such a impossible benchmark here ?

Surely if you took 2 hours then it would have taken me 1.5 hours to get there instead of only 30 minuts. I mean the ratio of covered distances very much suggests this.


However I never stated anywhere that the distance was the reason I didn't attend this race. So I also fail to see why "he only lives half an hour away" is in any way meaningful, even it was true.

But I can let that slide. What I can't let slide is the fact that this thread has now shown to be full of glaring misstatements. With some of these appearing to be intentional. Surely, Tony you are aware that I keep my boat in Zandvoort, so why did you still make the claim that I only live 30 minutes away from the Tiengemeente event side ? Zandvoort is a pretty well know place in NL and there is no way you could not have know that Zandvoort is much further away from Hellevoetsluis (event side) then 30 minutes.

Now I know that several people would jump at any chance to give me a payback for what ever they feel I've done to them or their prefered cat designs or brands. But doing that by gross misstatements of the obvious truth is more than just a little bit over the line.

If you really have to then get me on REAL and THRUTHFUL data, not on false accusations.

Also I serious disapprove of the tendency to filter out the worst performing boats in a fleet and somehow draw far reaching conclusions from those arguable bad results. Conclusions like : "IMHO, With a rating of 102, which is the same as the F18s, you would have to sail like crazy to get a good result." It feels like you are actively trying to proof something that is intrincly untruthful by any means possible. I would soon venture to call that misleading by intent. And no added smileys at the end of your obviously false claims can exonerate you !





No I don't agree with that Tony ! Simply because, I helped the former owners in converting this boat from its One-Design Bim 16 specs to F16 compliance. It was decided to forget about adding a jib as it was doubtful wether the bows could take the load of a bridle with a single forestay setup and they felt that sailing without a jib would not hurt them too much as long as they flew a spinnaker on the downwind legs. They entlargered their mainsail to full F16 size thus putting themselfs out of the BIM 16 class.

The F16 rules clearly state that a boat may be sailed with "less" sails then allowed by other rules. If you think you will do better without a spinnaker or a jib then you may leave those sails on the beach and still be considered full F16 compliant. Obviously such a decision is never unfair to the other boats which are sailing with a full compliment of sails, so why should the F16 class rules ban such a choice. Every designer is fully free to design his optimal boat within the bounderies of the F16 class rules. This Bim 16 boat and its former owners did just that and took a risk by accepting to sail without a jib despite the fact that they are allowed to have one in 2-up mode.
So from the point of view from the class rules this is "normal".

I guess that in the light conditions of this Tiengemeente event they have proven that indeed one can get by without a jib in 2-up mode. I personally still expect them to suffer a little more in stronger winds and on reaches.





Wasn't everybody in this event ?

I mean, including the much trompeted One-design classes.

Wouter

(Let me kick the bucket for you.)

The reason I didn't go is simple. I was too chicken and all other F16's would have beaten me to the line with hours to spare. I didn't want to be found out and see all over the internet claims of how bad a sailor I truly am.

Wouter

It does apply to these boats.

The real question here is why you think that it doesn't apply to the M20 and F18HT's ?

This is getting a little bit silly, isn't it guys.

Are you trying to compile bogus questions and statements faster then a normal person can debunk ?

Wouter

Ummm.... your talking to yourself Wouter, the last three posts are from you....

Then, if you are right, the calculated Texel rating for the M20 is 82 (93-11) and for the 18HT is 87 (98-11).
It seems that Unirig cats are very penalized under Texel.

If they were fitted with a jib of about 3.7 sq.mtr. area then they would be.

Why don't you spend some time actually familiarizing yourself with the Texel rating system before shooting off in all directions.

And after that ponder some more on my statement :"... it was modified to be an F16. The rating difference, however, is caused by the fact that it is sailed doublehanded without a jib. Texel rating system then predicts an 11 % performance loss. ..."

I'll give you a hint : "11 % performance loss with respect to the same design when fitted WITH a jib"

Before we create anymore confusion. That Bim 16 will sail off of a rating 102 in Formula 16 class races; ergo first in wins whether or not it has a jib or not.

Wouter

What ever happened to the Bim 16?

Wouter,

The Texel Rule seems really silly.

You wrote:
< I'll give you a hint : "11 % performance loss with respect to the same design when fitted WITH a jib">

As you know, BIMARE has been building only unirigged cat since 30 years.
A sloop rigged BIM 16 exists only in the mind of the Texel measurer.
I am afraid that he is often drunk.

Lots of handbags at dawn here Wouter, calm down, no body is having a personal " pop " at you, just interesting jest. One here for you though, is there any truth in the rumour that Hobie forgot to include the mast in the sail measurements for their theretical 105.

I really doubt that. Texel measurements are acquired by independent measurers and so Hobie corp will not have much influence to scam the system unless they provided intentionally smaller mainsails for measurments. Which I do not think is the case

Wouter

Have a measure sometime it maybe interesting to say the least.

Should also be interesting on the 15th - 16th at Datchet when both F16's and the FX1's will be racing off the same line, as a combined class.