We (in the UK) would like to organise a european event in 2006, we are looking at several options, but would like some feedback from you 'foreigeners'.

We have interest here from about 12 boats.

Would there be any interest in coming over here to race?

If so how long should the event be 3 days or a week or?

What time of year would suit you best? Ferry crossings are much cheaper out of the main holiday periods.
How far would you travel, numbers makes a big difference to loacations we can choose from, the East coast of England is much easier for you to get to, but clubs may require a higher participation, whereas we can easily run an event in Wales for around 15 boats or more.

So please give us some feed back

Good news, John.

Uncredible, normally the autumn time is a time to relax and leave the class work on the back burner for a while. But over the last few weeks it has felt like spring time; extremely busy with every and anything.

Okay, so the F16 Euro's

Please allow me to add a few preliminairy thoughts.

Personally I want to be present at the first European F16 championships. I could live with missing a few of the smaller F16 events but the first Europeans is a milestone I really want to witness personally.

This puts me in an akward spot. I really want to have a crew with me and as she is some high flying barrister with an extremely busy schedule I fear that it will be difficult to find a good date to come over. In addition, I'm spending all my money at this time on a change in career. I expect to be till my neck in exams and the start of a graduation project over the summer months of 2006. I just accepted a 50 % part-time job at the university without the possibility to take days off. I'm part of the education program and so I have to be there on the assigned dates. It is going to be really hard for to travel or get away for more then a weekend.

Having said this ...



If I had a choice then I would always prefer a week long European championship over a 2 day or 3 day event. Simply because the weather can really ruin a 2/3 day event which is much less likely for an event during a week.

Also the biggest cost and time spend is in the travel days and the trip to the location. Going to 2/3 event or a week event is about the same price overall. I looked and several hundred euro's is the minimum for a ferry trip and additional travel costs. I think this can be much more easily be justified for a holliday of a week then for a long weekend of which you spend 50 % of time travelling and assembling/dissassembling your boat.



Sadly for me : late june till late july = Most expensive period travelwise.



For me it will be really attractive to stack 2 boats on a single trailer and share a ride with another crew going over to the UK. This puts the trip in a budget level that I can really affort. With F16 being lightweight I see no reason why this isn't a serious option. Also I would enjoy the travel part alot more.

So I think that hooking up with other crews would be a big argument for me to decision to come out. Apart from that I don't I would mind much where in the UK the event is held. I much rather have cheap lodging and good water access/good weather.

For us Europeans the real travel bottleneck is the ferry. The difference between Datchet and Wales is 5 hours of additional driving and 2 extra tank loads of fuel (= 100 euro's). Not much in comparison to the ferry costs and time spend bobbing around on the RoRo ferry doing 10 knots with the times going through customs/check-in.




Personally I would require a garanteed minimum of 10 boats participating in order to have a European championship.


There is one more thing that we may need to consider. We are looking at selling 2 Blades to German customers and I know some more Taipans are in German and Zwitserland. For these guys a European championship in Wales will be a significant travel requirement. For most of us Dutchies; UK will be fine. If it is going to be a European championship than we may have to give some consideration to the central position of the event site to most of the sailors who want to participate. I fully understand that this can be a difficult point to solve.

Just recently a suggestion was made to have a Open Dutch F16 championship in the south-west part of Holland. This to present the prospected Blade buyers with an focal event in 2006 and it was expressed to make the location easy accesible to UK sailors. I think this OPEN event will happen and we need to make sure that both events do not impact adversely on eachother. One other point to take away from this is that similar ideas seem to survice with different people at this time. We can either have both events or combine both into 1 bigger event. It is important to stay aware of eachothers efforts.

Personally, I have deep respect for the UK guys for proposing to organise the first EU F16 championships. I know how much work that will involve and how hard the volunteers need to work to get people to travel and participate. I just want to express that and make sure that my next comments are not at all intended to take away any initiative of these guys. I wouldn't dare stealing the EU F16 for 2006.

Please allow me to make a case for the location of Hellecat (Haringvliet, Zeeland = South-western part of The netherlands) for usage as OPEN Dutch F16 event location or as European F16 event for 2006 or the any of the next years.

http://www.hellecat.nl/

General map of The Netherlands showing cat club Hellecat (Hellevoetsluis) on the creek

http://www.brandingsport.nl/html/kaart_2.html

More detailed map of body of water at Hellecat :

map : http://www.hellecat.nl/rondetiengemeten/vaarroute.php




Hellecat is the location where each year the Round Tiengemeente is held (This year the were 185 boats) and each spring and autumn time they run a series of 4 sundays of 3 races. This club has experience in running an event. It is also located very near to Vlissingen and Hoek van Holland which means that any UK team can get to the event site within 60 minutes of stepping of the ferry.

The location is a former creek of the North sea that was been dammed off. It still has all the wind conditions of the North sea but without the waves or surf. It is a significant body of water and it is surrounded but flat lands that are unobstructive to wind. This means that it has very stable wind conditions and cancellation of races due to weather conditions are very rare. There is never a breaking surf to go through and the new F16 sailors will appreciate this. Often the water is rather flat even when the winds pipe up. As there is no tide their is enough room (and well secured) for many many boats. The location in general is very central to sailors from the UK and Germany.



For more pics go to :

http://www.hellecat.nl/opkoers/nk%20acat/index.html Of the NK A-cat event that was held there in 2005



There are a few downsides, There is no sandy beach, it is a clay beach. Hellevoetsluis is a decent sized town but the first true city (rotterdam) is about 30 min away). The clay is a bloody nuisance if you let it dry on your boat.

Maybe we can work out : We come to you, you come to us deal here !

Let me see. Any other feedback ?

I would like to travel to England or Wales again. It has been awhile. You know what, if you approve than I can contact the various Dutch F16 sailors and make them aware of your effort concerning Euro F16 2006.

Wouter

I understand that a longer event makes the prospect of travelling further more appealing, but it also makes it harder for others to attend. It would be much easier for me to take one or two days off work for a 3/4 day event than it would to take a full week off. A "warm up" day would be a good compromise e.g. 4 days of sailing, with only the last 3 days counting for the results, thereby making attendance on the first day optional.

Paul

Just a wild suggestion, but would you rank two 3-day events above a single event of a week if one of the weekend events would require you to travel to The Netherlands ?

It just occured to me that it would be more attractive for people to travel a long way if they were assured a return visit by the other sailors to a second event much closer. In this sense the cost of the first event can also be considered to pay for a good attendence at the second event and visa versa depending on where you are.

Just a wild idea, feel free to flame me.

Wouter

I personally have no problem with a split Europeans with 1/2 the races in the UK and half on the mainland, as you say it may give more people the incentive to travel.

The main thing at this stage is to find out how many boats are interested and would be prepared to travel, whether it be held over here, in Holland or both, so yes please contact any potentially interested parties, and get their opinions/interest

Perhaps the UK sailors could indicate their level of interest in a split event or travelling to Holland.

I would say I does not matter at all what label has been put on an event. As long as let us say more than 10 F16's attend it is fine to me. Important are the facilities and the water. I certainly do want a (soft) beach and not a slipway for instance.

As for travelling, it is nice if you can combine a (short)vacation with a sailing event. A place with good weather would be preferable.

I can tell you that any event in Great Britain will have few Europeans attending. Ferries are too expensive (I would like to take my family with me), ferries take too much time and the country itself is too expensive. Going overseas is in itself a barrier. Sorry for the English, I like them very much even their beer.

Last remark. You don't have to organise an event yourself at all. If all F16's agree to go to the Westland Cup for instance than we ask for a seperate starting group and everything is settled. We could also link up with other national championships (A-cat ?).

By the way, Hellevoetsluis is a great place with flat water, wind and a nice beach and a camping in the neighbourhood.

I have to say that I'd be VERY reluctant to support a split event. I much prefer to go to an event and come away with a result (or not ).

Naturally my vote has to go for a UK based Euros as we seem to be the most active at present at getting ANYTHING organised. BUT, if the majority are in favour of a near-continent based Europeans, AND there is the guarantee of a good turnout (say, 15+ boats), AND the chosen location can provide good sailing and facilities, AND costs can be kept down as much as possible, AND it's a 3-4 day event, then I'd be interested.

I have to say that I'm extremely disappointed at the apparent reluctance of our near neighbours to travel. I'm also surprised at the intimation that the Germans and Swiss would find travel to the UK particularly onerous - as one example the large North Sea ferries on the Hamburg to Harwich route provide excellent food and accommodation and a relatively comfortable and easy crossing. It is in all of our interests to keep costs down as much as possible, but some costs just can't be avoided. Unless we could get the event or class sponsored by a ferry company?

If you have another overriding agenda Wouter, that's fine. We all have lives to live outside of sailing. But, I'm sure you'll understand though if we just go ahead and organise something in your abscence.............

Hey... If Branson can drive his duck car across the channel.. What is the problem with a reaching across the channel on a F16?

Ohh well, okay. I'll forget about my personal feedback and just give you all the official feedback.

Do what you want but :

-1- Don't get us into trouble with ISAF.

You know how they react to any unaffiliated class to announce and hold a European Championship.

-2- Don't call it a European championship unless you are able to attract a significant amount of a non-UK sailors.

This out of respect of the other European sailors who, with just as much reason, can "just do it" themselfs and claim their event to be the F16 European Championship. For your national championship you can do whatever you want, with respect to a regional championship like the Europeans you will have to win the support and recognision of the foreign sailors.

In addition :

-3- I would love to be absent in any organising with respect to a EU F16 championship. I've done more than my share over the last 5 years. Sometime that is often easily forgotten. I'm looking to bail as a class official and spend a few years enjoying myself as a regular class member.

-4- I don't have "another overriding agenda"


Good luck to you guys !

Wouter

John_P,

Wouter raises a valid point with regard to ISAF? It's very unlikely that, at this stage, ISAF would recognise the class and allow us to use the title 'European Championship'. Do we try talking to them or the RYA or do we try to be 'cute' and come up with a way of circumventing their rather prescriptive rulings on Worlds, Euros, Nationals etc.?

I'm also fully in agreement that this has to be a Europe wide event (at least acknowledged as THE F16 Euros by the majority of F16 owners) for it to be considered as a 'valid' championship. And it is really pretty obvious that we need a sizable overseas contingent to underline that validity.

Wouter, you do have an overriding agenda - your career change etc. that is all I was referring to but in shorthand...

A great idea John but I think a non starter, essentially the Brits are getting on doing our own thing and I think will succeed over the next few years in establishing the class, the europeans are too fragmented at this time to really worry about a " European championship" especially as the time involved in setting it up will probably be 4 or even 10 times to set up as a low key Brit event for the gain of maybe 4 or 6 Euro boats

Lets not worry about it in 2006 or 2007 until there are more F16's in Euroland. Maybe we could hold an overseas British National Championship, maybe at Lake Guarda or such like, now I reckon a fair few of the British boats would travel to such a venue just for the experiance let alone the championships. If any of the British boats want to travel as I know a few do then lets join into a few events and if there is enough of us then we could even get our start, if not then just team up with the F18's as we have the same handicap.

It seems that with the ISAF rules being as they are, organising an event called "the F16 Europeans" would be more pain that it is worth. That said, I think there is a huge potential benefit for the class in having a single, european event that we can focus on getting attendance at. It seems that the UK is the obvious place to have it: it sounds like we've got 12 boats "locally", and we've got people who are willing and keen to organise it.

If there's another country that can offer the same, then I'm sure many of the UK sailors would look to make the journey. Otherwise, let's take advantage of what we've got, and do whatever we can to get as many of you mainlanders across to our fair isle, and get some attention for our class.

Paul

Maybe you could hold it at Texel (Dutch Open), then at least you have guaranteed publicity. Best part is that you will have an official prize giving ceremony for the long-distance race.

Ohh, sorry to have misunderstood your statement.

Indeed, this agenda is limiting me very much in what I can do in the coming 20 months.

Wouter

There is definately something to be said for the UK as host considering the attendence at the combined FX-one/F16 event. A basic garanteed participation is paramount and honestly I don't see another European country being able to garantee such a participation at this time. The Netherlands comes 2nd in the picking order but we need the influx of the Blade group deal to get something noteworthy on-line. But that deal is looking good, so among us suggestions are made about an low-key Dutch event. At the location I was referring to in my other post.

Just an idea. To get around the ISAF we have called all our past F16 events Challenges, just like the motor and car trourist throphies of the days of old. We can continue this tradition.

Wouter

or.. F16 European invitational..
The 18teens get around the rules by holding a "cup" event..

anyway just thoughts.

At this stage the name of the event doesn't matter, we would have to call it something other than the European championships, but for the sake of simplicity I used Euros so we all know what we are talking about.

We have some momentum over here, there are about 45 boats in the UK and we finally have a core of boats that are willing to travel and race, I believe that an event like this can only help to build momentum in the other countries as well.

What we need to know is the numbers.

I have done quick poll and we have 16 boats interested in the UK, to be honest they will come to a 'Nationals' just as well as a 'Euros', so the event will go ahead in one way or another, but if we can get some European participation with some Taipans or Blades then the class will be much healthier for it, we will have a Champion, we can move from a cyberspace class where we discuss potentials to a 'real' class where the boats and opinions can develope on the water.


I really believe that our boats offer significantly more than any other class, but it appears to me that people want more than just a great boat, they want to be part of something.

Most sailors don't travel to events but they still buy into the fleets that offer the opportunity to do it, of the ones that travel, most will only do 3 or 4 events a year, this event could be 1/4 of that. I really believe that the UK will have a credible TT series next year, and with a push I'm sure that Holland could follow.


The fact is that to have a decent race you need about half a dozen boats, that is all we got at the Nationals in August, and it was hard work to get that many, but once there everyone had a good race, (even in big fleet racing you only end up actually racing ammongst a handfull of the boats anyway) as long as there is one boat on the racecourse of similar speed to you then the racing is good and there is always the next little group up the fleet to aspire to.

But the effect of this little weekend was far bigger, we now have a core of boats that will race next year and as many again that having seen the first race will attend some of next years.

This event could offer a focal point to the class, potential F16 sailors will be able to see that they are investing in a boat that offers them some racing, the class will move from a potential one where we talk about how well or badly we do in handicap races to one where we have the beginnings of a racing community.

I don't know what representation we have as a class in mainland Europe, Wouter?, but is seems to me that Holland has almost enough boats to start a small series, if you Dutch can pull 6 boats together to commit to go racing 4 times a year you will have a class, and with the size of the market you have that will quickly become 30 or 40.

Piggy back onto our little fleet and even if you only get 3 or 4 over here you will have started the ball rolling.

We will do eveything we can to make it easier for you to attend, if the event is in Pembrokeshire we can offer free camping, entry fee at cost, food and drink at cost. If we go to the East coast we can latch onto a cat event to keep costs down. I will approach the ferry companies for discount tickets(they are usually quite good about this sort of thing).

But the important thing is how many will or even might come?

Surely there are 3 or 4 out there who would like to test themselves in a fleet.

After all is said and done, there is a lot more said than done, is this a time to do something, or do we wait another year?

'what we need to know is numbers'

OK, count me in.

Preferences:
3-4 day event in May, June or July.
East, South East or South UK.
Don't mind if we piggy-back another event.
Venue to have camping nearby.

I will travel to the near continent if costs can be kept reasonable and there is a good turnout guaranteed.

Sorry to be so proliferic on the forum, but all I'm doing these two weeks is studying mathematics and coffee breaks. Of course during such breaks I log on and see if there is a new posting. And amazingly enough there always is !
Another 5 days and I'm up for a 6 hour exam !

Anyway, back to the topic.

Project code name = Euro's, roger that.



Definately, we saw the same thing after the DCC event in 2004 sadly the groupdeal back then failed or we would have had 5 more boats on the Dutch water for the whole 2005 season.




Of course we had a small race serie going on this 2005 season. Where a group of us had agreed to participate in 1 event per month. We hitch-hiked on general open class event as to not have to organise these events ourselfs. But personally I felt that we were lacking depth in boats; this cirquit was really dependent on making the groupdeal of Taipan F16's a succes. Also the weather this season was awful. Nearly every event saw 20 to 25 knots of wind with a very confused seastate. We all remember the Round Texel of this year, well the other events were not much better. Our better events were the Spring Cup in April 2005 and Round Tiengemeente in okt 2005.

Anyway, during 2005 we had about 6 crews willing to travel and race out of 10 boats (owners), sadly not all at the same time. So we typically got only halve of them at any event. At this time I estimate that 3 or 4 Dutch crews who are willing to travel to the UK to participate in the Euro's. I expect this to be a good mix though, the 3 most likely candidates are : a Stealth F16, Taipan F16 and Blade F16. Pretty much the crews that have been doing the 2005 series as well.

The remainder of Europe sees a bunch of Taipans in Southern Germany and Zwitserland, sailing on the mountain lakes and the lakes of Northern Italy. Then there are several scattered boats in Spain, France, Sweden and Italy.

In total I would say that in total there are a 56 to 60 F16 boats in Europe (Not counting Spitfires or other grandfathered/dispensated boats). This was the last cout with 36 Stealth F16 in the UK. If the number of Stealths has risen to 45 boats over the 2005 season then we are looking at some 65-70 boats in total. The UK takes 2/3rds of the population. The other 1/3rd are scattered or concentrated in two groups in the Netherlands and Southern Germany/Zwitserland.

That is the situation in mainland Europe.





This has been our plan, indeed. Assuming the groupdeal is as succesful as I expect it to be then I estimate that we will get the small fleet going in 2006.



That is a serious possibility.





Ohh, you are in Pembrokeshire ? I know that place, been there before, would love to go back.

All these things will help in my case, definately. Yet the biggest help for me would be to share a trailer and car with another crew, thus halving the travel costs. Best would be to quarter the costs by teaming up as two doublehander crews. This would be of paramount importance in my personal situation. I expect it would seriously lower the threshold for other crews as well.




They are ? Okay, well your experience and help here is valuable indeed.



I have yet to contact them all BUT when going out on a limb I estimate :

-1- Bard and Lonneke (Stealth F16) : Will definately be interested, they travelled all over the world with their Dart 18.
-2- Geert and crew (Blade F16) : Will seriously consider it, has been all over the world for sailing as well.
-3- Wouter and Inge (Taipan F16) : Will seriously consider it, but are both hampered by inflexible work obligations;
-4- Jaap en crew (Blade F16) : Will consider it, especially when others are going.
-5- Nico and crew (Blade F16) : Will consider it; if costs are kept low enough.
-6- Martien and crew (Bim F16) : I don't know them well enough to make an estimate
-7- Harry (Taipan F16) : Will just have finished his boat and I don't think he will seriously consider it.
-8- Mark (Tapan F16) : Will not seriously consider it.
-9- Werner (Stealth F16) : Will not seriously consider it.
-10- Peter and crew (Stealth F16) : I don't know them well enough to make an estimate

P.S. notice the distributions of makes in Holland ? 3 boats of each + 1 Bim F16

The sailors in the Blade F16 Group deal will give it some thought, but it may be a step to far for their first season. Some of them are actually good sailors though. There are 5 boats in this group as we speak. Maybe 1 of them will come to the UK.

So I count 3 to 4 boats that will seriously consider it. The rest is dependent on outside factors.





I say lets do it.

Wouter

Wouter,
The Bim f16 broke their mast today at the last race of the oktober bokal at hellecat.
I have been swimming again. I think it’s my next bobby.