From the www.hobieclass.com website:

ISAF have maintained the Hobie 16 as the ISAF Youth boat

The ISAF Council have again approved the Hobie 16 with spinnaker as the ISAF Youth Multihull to be used at the ISAF Youth World Championships. ISAF did add another boat to the multihull discipline (the organisers are allowed the choice of two manufacturers in the disciplines) but as yet it can not meet the ISAF Regulations so it can not be considered for ISAF Youth Worlds.

SO THE HOBIE 16 WITH SPINNAKER REMAINS THE ONLY BOAT THAT CAN BE USED AT THE ISAF YOUTH WORLDS.

Hi all,

all the feed back I get from Hobie 16 sailors that have used kite, or are forced to use kite by sailing youth class, is that they don't like it and struggle to perform as well as Hobie 16 without kite. The problem seems to be a inability to build apparent wind downwind.

So my question is, if as a youth class the Hobie 16 is supposed to be a introduction to spin. cat sailing, why does it seem to be putting young sailors off spinnaker cat sailing? And if I am wrong why doesn't the Hobie 16 with spinnaker get sailed in mixed regattas?

I wouldn't leave the spinnaker off my boat if you paid me, it is just too much fun. But the Hobie 16 in OZ don't want to use them unless they have to at a youth event.

Now some of you will know I sail a home made F16, but I am not trying to put other boats down here, please believe me that is not my purpose. I want to see everybody sailing cats of whatever sort they like, but I do want to see them enjoying spinnaker sailing.

So am I missing something? Is the feed back from these sailors wrong, some top adults as well as youth. I should say I haven't sailed one with spin. myself. So whats going on.

Regards Gary.

Gary,
Many people have sailed Hobie 16s most of their lives. The boat still has timeless appeal due to its simplicity and big class following. Most feel that adding a spi will destroy the open class. The boat is fine and the real buzz is racing a in a good sized fleet.
Spinnaker boats need strong crews. You can race a standard Hobie 16 competitively with your kids (many do).
I love racing my Tiger but I enjoy just as much, sailing on a Hobie 16 with my daughter, especially when the breeze is up!
Youth who sail Hobie 16s love them with or without a kite. It is a handful in strong breeze.
ISAF dictated that Youth must use a spinnaker. Not everyone agrees.
I think many Hobie sailors see it this way.(thank goodness)

<******** ! Tell that to my 58 kg female crew ! The women is also only 1.62 mtr tall = 5 foot 5 inch. If she can do it then any teenager can do it. It is all in having the proper sheeting system, something I have not seen on the H16's yet because of their OD fetishm. But that problem is wholely OD in cause it has nothing to do with the spinnaker itself.

Point 2 : We are talking YOUTH class here, NOT parents and KIDS class. These youths are between 12 and 21 and outrun my sorry 32-year-old butt in any trackrace and who seem to have endless energy and do a score of muscle sports like gymnastics and competition swimming.

Also, If you can pull on a mainsheet in 20 knots wind then you can also pull on a spinnaker sheet.

Besides I see kids below 12 years of age pull spinnakers on baots like the 20-er, 420's and Hobie Dragoons. Are you telling me that suddenly after they turn 12 they can't hold on to a spi anymore !





Yes, but this youth class thing is not about you or any other parent nor is it about any (young) kids either. It isn't even about some recreational sailing. It is about competitive teenagers who will have to go through a feeder class that will prepare them for the big classes that they will enter after 18 or 21. Meaning : F18's, olympic Tornado's, maybe the big French cats and tris. That is a whole different ball game.





If they love the H16 with kite than what is the problem here ? The old generation of H16 sailors who are married to their H16 and who often treat other designs as intruders or undesireables.




This sounds like a good reason to NOT have the H16 as the youth boat. So what is your point. You can't seriously claim that all newer designs are worse than the H16 in this respect. Because then you really needs to get some test rides on non _h16's





Any why do you think that ISAF demanded a Spinnaker ? Just to annoy the hell out of you H16 guys ?

And why on earth was the H16 with spi entered and promoted as the new ISAF youth boat when none of you hobie sailors really want it ?

Get with the program guys or stay out of these affairs and be happy in your own H16 niche. Nobody has forced you to enter the H16 spi as a youth boat !

So ISAF didn't dictate the use of a spinnaker. It recognised that the youth class needed one if it was to properly prepare the youth for the follow-up classes. And for every H16 racer who doesnt agree with this I can name other 10 racers who do. ! Thank Goodness !

And this is one reason why I was looking forward to giving the H16 the boot as the perferred youth boat. You always have the tip-toe around dogmatic H16 sailors who really don't want anything else than 1970's-one-size-fits-all H16 OD racing.

And ISAF once again showed us to be lacking a spine.

Wouter

ISAF needed a youth boat with numbers and reasonable value that is accessible to the masses around the World. They also wanted boats provided at the Worlds events. Hobie Cat France has been doing just that for years. If another company or design class steps up and can provide a replacement that is desirable and available... I am sure ISAF may change the selected boat. So far that has not happened.

Whether the 16 has a spinnaker or not within the Hobie Class... is a Hobie Class decision. The Hobie Class Association is feeling a bit like the tail is wagging the dog here. The Hobie Class (as voted at the AGM in South Africa) does not want a spinnaker on Hobie 16s at major Worlds events. The North American Class Association does not want them at any Hobie events on a 16. We see it as short circuiting our programs and advancement through the class racing. We want to keep the 16 class healthy and as designed... simple. The Hobie Class goal should be to get youth to enter the Hobie Class and that is best done through the Hobie 16. We currently have a very strong youth class and want to keep it that way.

Simply, what is needed by ISAF does not have to be adopted by the Hobie Class.

A report dated 19-Nov-05 indicates that the ISAF has selected the SL16 as the Youth Multihull. Follow the links:
http://www.ussailing.org/championships/youth/multihull/
It is an Adobe document, so I couldn't cut and paste it into the note.

I wanted to sail all my life, but my parents were not interested. So I had to wait until I finished grad school and got a job to buy a boat. I got to say, anyone 12-21 who gets to race in international events is lucky. I would have done anything just to have a boat with a sail.

It seems like youth skippers would probably just use their parent’s boats, so whatever the most popular boat with a spinnaker is the boat that should be used.

As much as I resent the hobie class association, in America the tiger is #2 and if I had one I wouldn’t let my kid drive it.

Matt

The text of the ISAF bulletin includes...

>>Multihull Open – Hobie 16 with spinnaker or Sirena SL 16

Current Position:

The Hobie 16 is currently the only Equipment that can be used in the Multihull Open
discipline.<<

The Hobie 16 is already selected for the 2006 and 2007 World events, so it is far in the future before the SL16 actually gets used.

Nice Boat, It would be cool to have about 5-10 of those around for Match Racing.

So which is it though, H16 or SL16 as the boat?? I am confused...

Hobie 16 for a couple more years.

The SL16 is not available in sufficient numbers as yet. After that, it is one of the two boats available. I understand it is up to each race organizer after that. I think that means if a builder agrees to provide boats for an event that the builders boat would then be selected for use.

The group promoting the SL16 has basically been given 2 years to prove their claims made in their press release.

The ISAF Youth Championships must be held in a ISAF Recognized or International Class. The SL16 is not an ISAF Recognized nor International Class. The Hobie 16 is an ISAF International Class. Therefore, the SL16 cannot be used for the ISAF Youth Championships at this time.

The requirements for becoming an ISAF Recognized / International Class are here.

The SL16 does not have the numbers nor the geographic distribution to qualify yet, so even though it has been recommended as the "equipment of choice", it cannot be used until it meets the additional hurdle of becoming an ISAF class.

(When was the last time Booth, Ashby, Bundock, Hagara, Ogletree, Smyth, .... raced a H16; if they ever did")

Bundocks was 5th at the Aust.16 nationals in 2005.
"YOU ASKED"

Matt Miller,

This is a good time for me to underline that I assign a whole lot of blame to the ISAF organisation. That is to pre-empt any "he hates hobies" nomer. Because, I don't. They may not be my favourite boat but I never hated them nor would I quickly decline any invitation to sail one.

Maybe I'm most pissed about the fact that the big whigs out there are again making a big mess of things.

I really don't think that having a youth boat (with spi) coming from a very dominant spi-less class that is also actively opposed to the spi, is a good thing. It is like putting two horses that hate eachother in a span together. A thing like that is really not going to work. And I for one really don't appreciate putting these youngling through the raw politics that come with such a situation. To which, sadly, indeed I'm also partial.

So I don't think the following advantages of the H16 are convincing enough in the bigger picture:







Personally I think the responsibility of this situation is totally misunderstood by many people and especially the ISAF whigs. Call me naive but wasn't ISAF (or IRYU) foundated to actually organise, arrange and build such projects that would otherwise not come to be ? What else are we all paying our dues for ? Why else have an organisation like ISAF at all ? Quick to ban sailors participating in unrecognised events like the Hobie Wave sailors but nobobies is home when the going gets tough !

Seems to me that the ISAF organisation is giving herself an easy ride.

Anybody noticed how many developments were initiated and grown outside of ISAF tutilage ? The whole skiff scene, F18, ORMA and even Hobie 16 was outside of ISAF (IRYU) for many years.

While I'm happy that they are trying to get a good youth class for catamarans together, I also feel that some boss needs to call them in to his office and tell then to do it again and this time properly.

If nobody does anything then we shouldn't be surprised that we'll keep circling around in the same situation for many years to come with our youth sailors footing the bill.





Excuse for not feeling much sympathy. Who exactly entered the H16/spi as the youth boat here ? Apparently not the Hobie class. Neither did I or any other non-hobie sailor. And I seriously doubt that ISAF forced the Hobie corp into entering it with a "or else ...". So tell me who exactly made the decision to enter this boat and what was the vision behind it ? If it was not the Hobie class organisation then why wasn't the guy or group who actually did enter it not leveling this development with the Hobie class ? Or even doing such a thing AGAINST the judgement and wished of the Hobie class ? Had this group even the right to enter this boat on behalve of the H16 class ?





So why was the H16 entered as the youth boat with spi ? This youth boat appears to be lacking a home. Nobody wants it, certainly not the main H16 body. Not even the truly competive youths want it as they often can't wait to get into the F18 or Tornado class and really get serious.

In all honesty here, I actually agree that H16 should stay true to its base and continue like that. But I also see that there is a rather high probability here that the current setup will only have negative effects on both the H16 class as the youth class.





In that case I think ISAF should recognize the music and seperate the ISAF youth class from the H16 class. Seems like the best setup for all. And if nobody wants to give away boats to ISAF (what a surprise !) then some whig should shift their butts into gear and work over their old-boys network for some corporate sponsorship.

Hell if Mitch Booth and Herbert Dercksen can haggle Volvo for a complete full-blow extreme 40 mini cirquit with 6 races in nearly as many continents then surely some company out there can donate enough money for 10 youth boats to be used annually in a round robin championship ?

Hell, ship these youngster a week extra to the site and let them practise on the boats for a week before starting the event. They can learn the trick on daddies boat and fine tune their skills in the practice week.

Surely, we can get such projects of the ground ?





That is true. But this really sounds like a the receipy for a truly bad marriage where it is the kids that truly suffer.

Do we want that ?

Wouter

I know the ISAF rules for becomming an official recognized class and I don't believe the SL16 group has a chance of meeting these requirements.

But then again, ISAF reserves the right to recognized a class even when the requirements are not met when pressing reasons compel it to do so.

I wonder why they haven't opted for this route yet.

But then again, I also wondered why they really wanted a complete new design to begin with. And then expect it to miraculously grow into a recognised class (unaided) within 3 years.

Some guys are in dream land.

I think it is time now for me downer pills


Wouter

Mitch Booth finished second at the 2002 Hobie 16 Worlds in New Calidonia.

Randy Smyth finished 13th at the 1999 Hobie 16 North Americans.

So where do the North American youth go to sail the NA Champioships on the KL15.5,SL16 and Nacra 500? I continue to hear about people being upset with Hobie and HCA, which are certainly linked, but are not one in the same. The HCA continues to do as much each year for Youth sailing as anyone. The Hobie 16 continues to bring in more youth and novice sailors than any other boat in N.A. Not all youth sailing is geared toward creating olympians. The idea, in my mind, is to introduce kids to a sport of a lifetime that promotes competition and a great lifestyle. Maybe the people that select the boat understand this and don't live in a time machine.

This issue was generated by ISAF wanting something for the multihull Worlds that is unavailable. This really had nothing to do with the Hobie Class Association. This was a deal for provided boats and Hobie Cat France responded to the request which left us all with the conflict.

To me... there was a simple solution: Have the youth sail the ISAF Worlds on Hobie 16s (class legal). At least until there is an actual class using spinnaker available.

There are many good things about this idea... no class conflict. Plenty of training and developement sailing / racing available. Plenty of properly equiped boats available worldwide. As it is... we have one spinnaker kit available for youth to train on in the US and no actual racing.

At least all of the youth are in the same "boat" on this. No one has a huge advantage by having the race sailed on their class's boat.

Hagara has won the Eropean 16 nationals multiple times

I think everyone is look at a very complex situation and trying to make it simple. The facts are the ISAF Youth Worlds is not Class racing. It is designed for National Authorities to send their best youth sailor (only one per country) in an Olympic discipline for practice and get used to international elite competition. If you look at the equipment chosen it reflects the Olympic equipment. ISAF have chosen the Laser, Laser Radial, 420 (smaller version of the Olympic 470) and now radically even though it not yet available world wide the Neil Pryde RS:X . For very obvious reason ISAF Could not select the Tornado as a youth discipline. As the Hobie 16 was already the ISAF Youth multihull equipment, then it was obvious that ISAF would choose a Hobie 16 with spin as the youth equipment.

The idea is to get youth out of other sports and computer games and into sailing and catamarans. What is the most popular multihull and available in every country? The Hobie 16. Is it the best boat in the world? No, but neither is the Laser or the 420, but they are available. Is it the SL 16 the best boat in the world? No it is not, the youth at the evaluations did not like the boat.

Matt Miller is incorrect with his statement the Hobie 16 with spi will be around for a few more years. The Hobie 16 with spi is in the ISAF Regulations and there is no move to remove the boat. All they have done is add another boat to give the organisers the choice of manufacturers to supply the boats to their event. They have done the same for the Laser Radial (or Byte) and the 420 (or the 29er).

The big question must be why the SL16 which has no numbers world wide is going to get the ISAF Regulation changed so they can be accepted. At present while they are on the equipment list they can not be chosen as they are not a Recognised Class a requirment in the ISAF Regulations.

The youth at the evaluation trails did not support the SL16 as one of the top 3 boats. Why was it chosen? Is it because the chairman of the evaluation trials is French and the trial were held at the French training facilities and they chose a French boat?

So don’t argue about the Hobie 16 with spi ask yourself what are YOU doing to get youth sailing going in your area.