That is one thing the builder did wrong with these boats. They never really designed them to be really international boats; boats that were well suited to a wide variety of conditions that sailors all over the world will encounter.

They thought that a boat that had a relatively long history on deep alpine lakes would handle and perform well in other area's as well. They were also unlucky that the boats that were shipped to the US were a poor mans imitation of the flyer hullshape that was just getting into vogue at the time. They cut away volume at the sterns and bows, something that really didn't help the design in of-shore conditions or even in in-shore conditions with significant waves/chop.

That was the design part of the story. These of course combined with some organisation issues to seriously take some shine of the 18HT image and when its greatest exponent decided to walk another route in life, the class stumbled and fell down.

It is still doing well in the Alpine lakes regions but not really outside of it. It is highly unlikely it will ever be able to get of the ground in Australia or even the USA in my opinion. Neither do I see much potential for it in North Europe (UK, Netherlands or even the French Atlantic regions) this while the F18 has made serious gains in all these area's. And make no mistake about it; these area's are important in the greater scheme of things. A class will not get very far if it stays strong in only one local area.

Game over, F18 class won.

Wouter

Dave (and others),



Initially I was not planning to add the F16 perspective to this thread, as mark says, the F16 is more of a side-show in the F18HT story. However, I like this public history thread where some true things can finally be said without creating a blow-out. It is good to set the record straight and get everybodies view on history based on the same facts. So here goes. And like I am; I may have a few juicy comments. But I will play nice; don't worry


I think that I will pick up the thread round about this time :




Of course the F16 class in the USA preceded this moment somewhat. Also the F16 class as a whole was not an exclusive American story. It has always been a effort that had its roots in three main area's. Europe, USA and Australia. This gives it a little different angle then the US F18 and US F18HT history of the same time frame.

The F16 didn't come about because "small and midsized teams (in US) needed a spin race boat that the ladies could handle more easily then a 20". But early on we decided to start in the USA as that area was still Formula free at the time and we gambled that we could be the first ones in and thus take a sizeable market share early on. We never did of course and the reasons were quite simple. We had alot of troubles with the AHPC dealors (Taipan) in the USA and in all honesty we saw no less then 3 such dealors come and go in the first years of the F16 class in the USA. None of them did much in promoting the product; some even actively discouraged our customers from buying a boat with them. And that is putting it nicely. So in the case of the Taipan we had to resort to customers importing their boats themselfs including all the paperwork and other troubles. In the beginning the AHPC company (Taipan) was torn between two irreconsilable forces. One force disliked spinnakers with a passion and was pretty opposed to modifying the Taipan 4.9 design in any way. The other force didn't care that much and thought that an upgrade would be a good way to earn "new money" of an arguably good design; however F16 came 3rd in attention after the A-cats and a new project they were developping at the time (Taipan dinghy and Capricorn F18). All in all it was a right pain in the neck to supply the US customers with boats and we actually had to turn away quite some folks.

We tried to cover these problems we had with the new boat by Stealth marine; the Stealth F16 but US sailors never really showed much interest in it. I think Stealth was really unknown at the time and it didn't have the excellent reputation the Taipan had. The Stealth F16 has always been a tough sell to US parties.

Right at the beginning of our troubled period the F18 and F18HT classes came along. In a very smart move the founder of the US F18HT class made himself the AHPC importer (Taipan). This placed the F16 class in a very awkward position and pretty much garanteed that we would only play a minor role in what ever was to come. He could of course completely throttle us, as he did. The taipan was the design we needed in the beginning and we had no alternatives available at the time to replace the Taipan with. Partly because one alternative, the Bim 16, was also under direct control by the very same person as he was also the official Bim importer. By that time the Stealth F16 hadn't been launched yet and there was still a huge amount of work involved in making this brand a house hold name. And the Blade F16 design hadn't even been conceived yet.

Thanks to the feel and excellent design of the Taipan (and later F16's) we still managed to get a few boats into the USA, but it was extremely hard work. And I still don't know exactly how we survived that period (in the USA) from late 2001 to late 2003. We were out of the game as we had no dependable supply line whatsoever. However we did one thing right early on. We chipped in our lot with the F18 class and were quite vocal about it. The leaders in the F16 class fully understood how powerful the F18 class was and how likely it was to succeed. By linking ourselfs to this big and powerful force we could get away from the 18HT class. It meant that if the F18 class succeeded in the USA that then the F16 class would see new chances later on when we had cut ourselfs loose from any throttling dealors or had created a truly committed local builder. Of course, behind the scenes we promoted the F18 class were we could and tried to stay alive and moved in a boat or two were we could. Trusting (sometimes hoping) that eventually our basic concept was sound enough that it would pull us through the troubles. I think that indeed this finally did pull us through, more about that later.

I must say that promoting the F18 class was never an conflicting issue for me personally as I do that setup appreciate it alot. If I had a dedicated and strong crew I would sail an F18 myself. I personally had never much respect for the javelin-2 design, neither did several others, it appeared to us that it has some basic flaws. This is about the boat and much less so about the class, although I will still say that a 10.5 mtr mast on a 18 foot and 2.5 mtr wide platform is asking for instability problems (both sideways as lengthwise). Also the imitation flyer hullshape was directly opposite of what they should have done. I was never in doubt that other designs (classes) would provide a much better feel while sailing, this was later confirmed by guys like Will Sunnucks and Tim Bohan and others who sailed the 18HT's and compared it directly to I-20's and Tornado's or even Blade F16's. Actually I was shown one of the Bims very early on during the 2002 Spring fever regatta where the owner talked us through all of the issues that the boat had. At springfever the 18HT's showed indeed to be fast in light winds but they also showed to be noticeably short of a quality product. The F18's of the time were much better build. And the top range F18's like the Cirrus F18 were well ahead of the Jav-2 in construction, finish and abuse resistance. And also in ease of use. One thing about the Jav-2 that spread my eyes wide open in amazement was the fact that their HOLLOW rudderboards had a drainage hole at the very bottom of the board. Each time before you went out you had to tape this hole up yourself, hoping you wouldn't loose it while sailing and accepting the disruption of the waterflow. You really didn't see things like this on any of the F18's not even on the cheaper ones like the Mystere F18's.


Then I think the US AHPC/Bim importer of the time overplayed his hand with both his suppliers, seriously souring his relationship with them both. He lost the AHPC relationship to Chip Zenke eventually and the Worrell disaster was right around the corner (or in the making ?). The rumour in Northern Europe is that the event failed because the boats were never present in the USA. It must be said that none of the rumours I heard put the blame at the Bimare yard and if anything some people lost alot of money (far in excess of the Worrell participants) when the smoked cleared.

And indeed when the smoked cleared the US 18HT importer himself was without a supply line of boats. He couldn't switch to Ventilo as the Ventilo boats had always been expensive even when the US$ to Euro exchange rate was attractive to US customers. So he was up the creek without a paddle. Just like the F16 class had been (and still were at that time). I think the very high expectations and the subsequent dramatic fall from grace doomed the 18HT class. I also don't think that its basic concept was sound enough to keep it alive till better times would arrive. In this respect the bad rep of the jav-2 boats kicked in. Very quickly after the worrell disaster we saw alot of boats on offer on classified pages and their prices kept dropping. It was quite clear that the owners were "unloading" them. Most owners had only bought these boats because they wanted to do the Worrell, not because they much believed in it or loved it for what it was. I think this quickly scared away any potential customers that were genuine interested in the 18HT concept.

The gunboat developments and its subsequent succes in some events and the Little Americas Cup was just another blow to the shaken faith of interested sailors and parties. Here was a "Money is no problem" party raising the stacks to a level where others simply could not follow. The "arms-race" scare got hold of the 18HT class in a way only US sailors seem to be capable of. And there were other blows as well, like the trailer program not working out. In my perception it was blow after blow after blow where any set of three blows would have doomed the class because of the high expectations. I think it may even have been the case that with halve the blows it would have ended as well.

The expectations had been promoted to a level that was unsustainable and then you are always risking the reversed critical mass problem. This is where simply the lack of living up to expectations is enough to trip the class into not forfilling even more of its promises (expectations) which then start feeding off themselfs quickly creating a very negative, disappoined mood. A mood that is extremely difficult to reverse. Needless to say that customers are not really buying under those circumstance.



During this time the F16 class went underground and did everything to stay alive in the USA. During this time Phill Brander decided to try his luck at designing a full boat, later named the Blade F16. This design proved to be a bullseye. Phill was really smart in making the boat look really pleasing while maitaining a very good level of quality. This development combined with our class wide problematic relations with the US Taipan dealor found furtile ground when the 18HT class passed away and the F18 class became an succes in the making. Matt McDonald, and some others, had been discontent with the Taipan supply line to the US despite really liking the boat and the F16 concept. They also knew that the F18 was not really good for their individual crew make-ups despite the fact they really approved of its concept. I-20 was no better in this and there were no other serious alternatives. I mean I-17 and FX-one classes weren't doing any better and the A-cat was a pure spi-less singlehander. Finally, somebody somewhere made a off-the-cough remark in 2004 and said :"why not build an F16 locally in the US ourselfs ? Hey, this boat that Phill Brander is developping looks really promising."

That was the beginning of VectorWorks Marine adventure into small sailing boats. Later this was incorporated into a new business unit VectorWorksSail and it attracted other brand names like Bimare and G-cat to build boats for them locally in the US. Funny enough this means that if Bim wants to relaunch the 18HT in the US market that he has to get passed a convinced F16 sailor first. Like I said this turned out to be a total reversal of fortune for us. The fact that VectorWorks Sail is seriously considering producing an F18 will make the 18HT's lot even more sobering. No revival is to be expected from this side. If Bim pays up then VWM will produce any boat they want for them but with Bimare itself now working on a F18 design even those chances are pretty negligible.

What now with the 18HT's

Ventilo is pretty much a Swiss market only company and I don't expect much at all from Stealthmarine in the way of 18HT. They still list it but I seem to remember that its mould are in permanent storage and have been for a while.

Then we have Eagle catamarans with an F18HT but that company hasn't broken though with any design yet. They are missing market savyness. They have been looking promising for a quite a while now but they can't seem to make a mark for themselfs. Marstrom of course never entered the 18HT class despite many comments to the contrary and it never will come out with an 18HT. It is not going to compete with its own M20 design. Then we have some small projects here and there like the Tomcat F18HT but without production facilities or even a developped class association these will go nowhere.

That, in my book, leaves the 18HT class and design stranded in the Alpine regions of Europe were it has been a viable class ever since 1995 or so. But they are cursed to remain strong only there as their direct brother classes like the Taipan 5.7 (not the Taipan 4.9 = F16) and the M20 are faltering in their competition with the F18 class. The 18HT market potential is only contracting outside of the European alps; even while the class is growing there locally.

And that it is.


As for the F16's I think we struck gold with VectorWorks Sail and the Blade F16 design. That boat is selling. Not in any spectacular way but definately selling. In its first year after its launch at Tradewinds 2005 some 7 boats have been build with another shy 10 on order. Not bad for a first year, considering that an previously unknown company came out with a design of a previously unknown designer in a class with very humble beginnings.

In all honesty AHPC will have to formulate an answer to this challenge and they will in a 16 foot version of the Capricorn. Then of course we are seeing new interest in the class by both builders and buyers. G-cat F16 is the next new design in the class. And there are more sales in the air, I noticed this at my own club new years reception and when looking at the mails I receive. I hear Stealth Marine is selling as well.

I think we have succesfully weathered the bad times and have come out stronger and more promising as a result. We have now proven to have staying power and that is one quality (selling argument) that nobody can deny us anymore.


Regards,

Wouter

Good post Mark. I do have a difference of opinion on the above statements. I don't believe the I20's are dieing. It seems to be that they are shifting constantly. Up in WI this year there has been a huge growth where they are getting quite a few at local regattas. I20 is still the only production ride to have for a distance race.

Back to the 18HT. This class entered the US at just about the same time as the F18 class. It was really anybody's game at that point. I watched both class's closely as I was on a Hobie 20 and knew that my days were numbered. I saw the 18HT's have some rudder issues and I saw the Worrell fiasco and still I think they could have gotten past those issues had they addressed them. As soon as WF lost interest in the class it was over. Nobody has picked up the ball and kept it rolling.

On the other side the F18 class has really grown. One of the big reasons it grew was because of the support by dealers of the SMOD classes. Some folks also got involved in the class at making it go as the NAF18 class.

I also believe that NAF18 class was viewed with a lot of skepticizm initially because it appeared to be driven by a dealer. Once that appearance went away I think that the class has really taken off. Now it seems that there is no doubt that this is the class of the future. It also looks like the "must attend event" is the NAF18 Nationals. Even some of the I20 sailors are starting to begrudingly convert to the F18.

Now I own both a Tiger and an I20. Both are great boats.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

Hi Mike

Yes, I don't wont to overstate dying... I actually was refering to buoy racing here. I20 guys are switching down because they want to do buoy racing and the I20 buoy racing scene is small. Actually, I think that the Tornado and the I20 should race buoy's against one another and work out a schedule with a combined national event ... but that would take organization ... oops!

Great post Wouter, I think that the story is pretty complete now.

The Stealth 18HT moulds may well make a comeback once I can get finance together for my little project. No cash at the moment, but it's still simmering away in the back of John and my minds.

Thank you for taking the time to make this posting. I am new to cat sailing, and your insight is very helpful

Dear Friends

Steve, asked me to translate his text, from german to english.
I hope, it show his meaning and is in his spirit.

Andi

--- Text from Steve in english (german version below) ---
Friends

I'm sailing since 25 year's catamarans of all different kind. (Different Hobiescats, Taipen 4.9 und A-Cat)

Since 3 Years I'm sailing the 18HT catamaran, first the ventilo and now then Bimare - Javelin. On the lakes and on the sea.

I never had any problems, neither with the boat or with the mast. Of course it is not a boat, to run up a beach. It is very similar like the A-Cat, except designed for 2 persons.

It is defenitly not designed to do something like the worrel, you would not wan't do it on the A-Cat also.

It is true, that here in Switzerland, we don't have big waves and we often do not have strong winds also.
In these conditions, the 18HT is simply very fast.
It is also true, that in strong winds and higher waves the 18HT has disadvantages, compared with F18, nothing is for free..

In carracing you don't compare a touring car with F1 car..

the 18HT is very similar to the F16, i can tell this because my last boat the 18HT was a Taipan 4.9 with Spi.

With catamaran greetings
Steve und Marcella ;-)
http://www.volvento.ch

-- text in german --
Freunde

Ich Segle seit über 25 Jahren mit Katamarane, von diversen Hobies über den
Dart 18, Taipen 4,9 und A-Cat.
Seit 3. Jahren segle ich 18HT Katamarane, Ventilo und Bimare Javelin.
Am See und am Meer.
Hatte noch nie Probleme, weder mit dem Boot noch mit dem Mast.
Natürlich ist es kein Boot um auf den Sandstrand zu fahren.
Es ist ein zweiman Regatta Katamaran sehr ähnlich dem A-Cat, denke mit dem
A-Cat würde auch niemand eine Worell fahren?!

Richtig eingesetzt macht er aber spass und ist sehr schnell.
Wir lieben das Segeln mit dem 18HT Katamaran.

Es stimmt das wir in der Schweiz keine grossen Wellen haben und oft nicht so
viel Wind, es stimmt auch das der 18HT in diesen Verhältnissen schneller
ist. Dafür hat er in grossen Wellen und Starkwind Nachteile gegenüber einem
F18.

Im Automobielsport vergleiche ich auch keine F1 mit Tourenwagen.

Der 18HT ist dem F16 sehr ähnlich, ich kann das gut sagen, segelte vor dem
18HT zwei Jahre einen Taipan 4,9 mit Spi.

Mit Katamaran Grüssen
Steve und Marcella ;-)
http://www.volvento.ch

Hi all

Here is my biased view, as a long time 18HT sailor and former skiffie.

I agree with most that has been said. I guess the lack of a class promoter and manufacture in the US is currently the big minus for the 18HT class! The other problem is that most 18HT's are sold by the manufacture directly, so there is no big support from your local dealer. If you wan't somebody to promote your boats it's got to be reasonable!

But I don't agree, with the opinions that the 18HT is a misconception at all.
The 18HT is different compared to most catamarans, because it is overpowerd and lite. THIS is what is part of the fun! The 18HT is very lively and fun to sail, mutch more like skiff, but allot more managable. Has mutch more power than a F16 2up or a F18 2up. Capsize happens often (at least when I'm sailing ) and the 18HT is very easy to right, because of the carbonmast, the narrow width and the long mast. because capsize is not a problem, you can sail at full risk and have all the fun.
I sailed around Texel twice, once in winds around 6+ Bft. when only 300 boats from 650 finished. Our crew weight was with 130kg / ~260 pounds on the lite side. So the 18HT is still truly managable (but not faster) in higher winds.

I think that the current Bimare Javelin design is under estimated. IMO it is a very good allround boat, fast under most conditions. The Javelin 18HT was designed from the scratch, it is completly different compared to his predecessor. Nothing has been cut off at the bow. The newer 18HT designes coudn't proof that they have a advantage yet. Also the pimped up gunboat was not faster at the ICCT in New Orleans.

Downsides of the Javelin are, a simple, but very lite rudder system, that dosn't kick up when running aground.
It is also true, that it is possible when sailing on the Javelin, to hit with the rearbeam the back of a wave. It happend also on my old ventilo and happend on the Tapian 4.9 I sailed with. All very fine boats!

Besides I think the quality of the Javelins I have seen is just fine. I have not seen any hull breakages so far. The stability is just as good or better than any A-Cat I have seen. On the lake of constance we sometimes have a lot of wood drifting around and a friend of mine hit a tree with his A-Cat at speed. He split one of his hulls.
It happend to us also, but we were lucky enough and only had a jump into the drink...

It may sound like I'm owning a Bimare, but I actually have never owned one. I'm looking forward to my new boat, which will be a Mattia 18HT.

BTW, wouter: the are only very few boats that sail with a 10.5m mast, most of us use a 10m mast now.
All the best from Switzerland!

Hello Andreas,


Hope all is well with you ?




I'm not so sure if anybody said that the 18HT was a misconception. There was indeed alot of talk about bad political moves by some class officials in the US and issues with the specific jav-2 design and US 18HT class but no mention of the 18HT class being a misconception.

The only comment that would approach such a "misconception" would by my own comments about the 10.5 mtr mast and you in fact have just confirmed this but stating the most F18HT are now sailing with shorter masts. But that is about it.

We maybe arguing something here that is not in conflict.






I sort of feel that this describtion is accurate of any catamaran out there. All catamarans are in principle overpowered and lightweight when viewed in the general sailboat sense. Even a laser 1 dinghy is about 100 kg in ready to sail weight and how small is that boat ? Then of course the 18HT are not really THAT lightweight when compared to other cats. Also any catamaran is alot more managable then a skiff, that is because skiffs are notoriously hard to handle. Maybe an 18HT has more power, but that doesn't say much, as the bench mark is speed not power. An F18 has significantly more power then an F16 but they are still about the same in speed. Then about the 18HT being easy to right, well it is pretty well known that you'll 2 persons on the righting line to do it. And which beach cat can't be righted with 2 on the line ? That is just normal, not really anything special. And on which 2-person beach cat is capsizing a problem ? Seems to me that this qualifies all beach catamarans as being able to be sailed at full risk while having loads of fun.

Seriously how do these characteristics of the 18HT set it apart from most other beach cats out there ? On these points I don't really see it as different.






Please note that 130 kg is equal to 287 lbs and not to 260 lbs (=118 kg).

And you did very well at Texel, I'll certainly give you that, but halve the F18 fleet was still in front of you on elapsed time. Arguably any catamaran is managable in high winds. Just depower it like nobodies business or point above )or below) the optimal course and forget about sailing really fast (= racing). I think that that is not the issue here. The issue is wether the design is still a good racer in these conditions. I'm sorry to say that both reports and the results show that other designs are alot better in the rough stuff and that includes the F18's. Just as the 18HT is simply noticeably faster in the really light stuff. I really don't think that anybody is in real doubt about this anymore. Of course when racing One-design then these differences don't really matter as all crews have the same issues, BUT in open class racing it is a serious issue. Especially in some major races that are nearly always held in big winds. Texel, Carnac, Worrell/Tybee, Round Isle of White, Sidney Harbour etc.


Regards,

Wouter

Hi wouter

everything is well, except that everything is frozen here in Switzerland and nobody goes sailing.


From my own expirience in righting a standard F18, I can tell that 18HT is easier to right. Even the Hobie 16 is harder to right... But of course everything is a matter of technique


Which has to be proven in races too ...
My beleave is, that the high wind capabilities of the F18 are also better than those of the F16. The F18 is heavier, longer (less pintching) and the max speed is probably higher.

The 18HT will not be faster in winds above 4 Bft.
This was never my point.

The funpart in sailing a boat which is more powered up, you get earlier on one hull, you can trapeze earlier.
Often we can double trapeze while our friends on the tornado are still sitting on there hulls and get bored

The difference is not that small and I have not very often missed the lack of righting moment.

I also think that the 18HT and F18 are not really comparable. They are just too different. In races the conditions favor once the F18 and on the other hand the 18HT. Also the different texelrating for different windforces dosn't help mutch, as the conditions can vary within the race.

Therefor I prefer to race one design.
Check out our racing calendar 2006
http://people.freenet.de/catamaran/AquastarFlyer2.ppt

The first 3 boats in the Cup, will be awarded with a watch

Regarding race results.
As I remember in 2004, I think that Daniele Sargoni made it to the second place in Duc d'albe, Hyeres, France. (He was actually faster than Mitch Booth)
Results I can only dream off!

Dear All,

Thank you very much for all your comments and memories. It was a real pleasure to read you all. I'm also pleased to read that 18HT is dead for some of you. Interesting point of view. Internationnally speaking possibly on standby, dead certainly not.

My understanding of the 18HT situation WW is mainly due to over communication on a small product that did not had time to evolve. Too much pressure was on it, no enought money to develop it and that's it. Who's falt, the Class, the boat it self? Is their even a falt?

Having Bimare selected for the worrel, looks more like a "financial choice" then a "best product selection choice". Well, this is my understanding of above comments. Once again, it is the 18HT boat type falt? Bimare is a little company, no possible comparison with HC or Nacra power, but Bimare is exploring (like few others) segment of the market that HC/Nacra does not for the moment.

Who believe that Bimare on it own, would have been able to bit Nacra or HC. Take the example of Apple and Windows, which is the best??? Is their a best or simply different products with different quality. Up to you to take the one that suits you the best. Isn't it?

How would you like to have an international boat distribution without manufacturer able to product enough boat. Marketing well enough, ensure distribution, promotions, having paid teams to develop products. Manufacture able to product many boats a day.

I'm new in the 18HT class and I can tell you that they are absolutelly great boats. Fast and exciting, like the A-Class. A little movement on the boat have an effect (which is absolutelly not the case on the F18. Each class has problems, F18 for instance need to be dismounted. You are not allowed to drive your car with a mounted F18 on a trailer, that is not the case of the 18HT. Class rules that are really strick and not so "Fun". I'm windsurfing since 20years and I've to say that 18HT/A-Class are the funniest cats I'll sailed on.

If you want your boat to be number one, you first need to have a good team on it. Today, to have the best team on it you have to pay for them... I'll be curious to see what if a great team would race " Texcel, Carnac or any other" on a 18HT? Who would bet that F18 would arrive first???

Having been at Duc d'albe this year and having saw Mitch on the HC Prototype... he was incredible. Like it they were coming from Mars... incredible guys.

Now guys, lets be fair, the F18 are great boats in tuff condition not in low one. 18HT are a greats boat in light/medium condition not in tuff one. Are all the places like European Northern See or American Atlantic?

18HT are not only European Alps boats... they are just unknown boats that had too much pressure on it, too much expectation from too many people.

I've often heard that A-Class is the "Technology place" of the catamaran, should be correct if Nacra as launched the A2 and HC is working on a new boat too.

What if you have a "A-Class" for two??? Why should it be a bad boat?

I have learned many things in reading all your statement ,and I can say that it is quite impossible for any class to become international without "big" manufacturer, with great dealer network and the best sailors.

I also strongly believe that if the 18HT are able to be the best boat in the Alps they could also become popular else were... But words are words and nothing can replace a real test. I have proposed to a friend of mine who is about 50th at the F18 world championship (golden fleet), certainly not the best sailor in the world... but I have to say that much better than most of us. The first time he tested my Mattiasport prototype after 15minutes he asked me were was the breaks... He will finish this seasons with F18 (10 years in the circuit) and will start the 2007 season on 18HT. For what reason do you believe?

If one of you come in Geneva - Switzerland area and would like to test a 18HT (Bimare, Ventilo or Mattiasport), I'll be gald to organise a test for him/her.

Again thanks to all of you that took time to answer my question and thanks for the 18HT video.

Hope seeing you soon,
Regards,
Jr

http://www.h2o-sensations.com

Are you saying that in Europe you cannot trailer an F18 without taking it apart? That certainly is not the case in the United States.

Hi Mary

This is not quite true ...
The max width for trailers in Switzerland, Italy, Germany and others countries was or is 2.5m. Lately they increased the max width to 2.55m in Switzerland.

The F18 is 2.6m wide, therefor a tilt trailer is needed.

Greetings

It was H20 who said it must be dismounted. So, okay, you have to either take it apart or use a tilt trailer? Neither is the case in the U.S. Maybe our roads are wider?

That's right.
In holland you are allowed to travell 2.6m wide also. I don't know of other european countries that allow you travell that wide.

So where are those european standards now.

All the best Andi

Le Duc d'Albe is the biggest OPEN catamaran race held every year in the Mediterranean Sea in the world famous sailing venue of Hyres.
In the 2005 this regatta was attended by 146 catamarans (whose 76 F18 and 2 18HT).
The two 18HTs got the 5th and 10th place (on corrected time).
The winner was Mitch Booth on the WIDE all carbon Fox 20. Only 6 F18s were able to beat (on corrected time) the two 18HTs.
The other 70 F18s were defeated both on elapsed and corrected time.
Full results at:
http://www.ducdalbe.com/Classement%20Duc%202005%20SCRACH.htm

To backup my claim, from Saragonis second place at the Duc d'albe 2004 in hyeres here are the results.

http://www.ffvoile.net/ffv/sportif/ClmtCompetDet.asp?clid=28507

Dear Mary,

Andi is correct, I was not "precise enough". Now one of the biggest country (at least in Europe) in the F18 circuit is France (if I'm not mistaken) and in France the maximum size of the trailer is 250cm. So or you pay for a trailer a huge amount to have it with an angle, or you dismount your boat... or finally to do not care and cross finger not to have an accident...

Now... I would like to add an important comment on my prior comments.

Thanks to all the actual players of the F18 for all the noise they are making. This can only help all the catamarans classes in becoming more known. We need to have a strong class and we have it, the F18. Media only talks about something when people are interested in the sport. As we do not see enought catamaran (no matter the class) on TV, New Papers and Magasine, at least with F18 we have more chances.

For your information, with the Swiss President of the 18HT, we are trying to re-create a "Swiss Multihull Association", that would regroup all the current class we have in this country to get stronger and have more weight vs our Federation and Swiss Media.

We need to work all together to become stronger and show our politics all the advantages of catamaras.

Regards,
Jr

Dave Lennard wrote:

"There were a lot of problems. rudder system does not kick up, parts on the boat just broke, dagger boards leaked, bad U.S. dealer, boat just sailed bad, rear beam hit water(too low),no floatation in hulls (one boat in Tybee 500 and a boat in the Alter Cup almost sank), hulls had ugly seams and leaked. It would be a good lake boat with flat and deep water and light winds.
One sailor spent like 40,000 in upgrades(gun boat)and still got beat by an N 20 costing 14,500."

Dave, I have to take issue with some of your statements.

1. Bad dealer - The dealer probably did more to help people who bought the boat than any other dealer of beach cats I've seen in this country. Dave, WF did not make money on this venture. He wasn't in it for the money. He loved the boat and the class. I still get really pissed at people who character assasinate WF. I've never seen anyone who would do more to help people at events.

2. Daggerboards leaked - so have Marstrom rudders and centerboards on Tornados. It was an easy issue to fix.

3. Just sailed bad - Well, we sure beat plenty of I-20's boat for boat in a lot of buoy racing we did. Seems I remember doing this at Catfight in 2002 (ask Mike Hill and Kirk Newkirk) and Rehoboth in 2003 (ask Mark Schneider). From my viewpoint, it sailed quite well and when we evolved it to the higher aspect chute, it became quite manageable in breeze. If we came out on the Gunboat HT at an open class event, you would be really impressed!

4. Hull leaked - We sailed the same HT for 2 years hard and it typically leaked no more than a quart at worst. That's fairly typical for most production boats. I never saw any hull leakage any worse than anything I've seen with products made by HC and PC.

I didn't like the hull seam but that was the construction technique chosen by BIM (their A-cats also have the seam). It was easy enough to sand fair but it made no real impact on performance.

Peter Johnstone did NOT spend $40K upgrading the Gunboat HT. He had about $25K in the boat including the money he paid for it. Let me say something about the performance of that boat. WF and I sailed the 2004 ICCT. We had only 12 days of sailing time together the whole year (we planned more but circumstances out of our control prevented it). We competed against three Olympic class teams who had over 60 days of racing and training that summer. I am absolutely convinced that the improvements Peter made to the Gunboat allowed us to compete head to head with Johnny and Charlie who were on a stock Jav 2. They beat us 4-1 in the defender series but the racing was extremely close. I was very pleased at how well we performed.

No offense Dave but your comments were not accurate.

Bob Hodges

Bob,

I'm just an outsider here but you were not really replying to what Dave ACTUALLY wrote :

Your statement :



Is actually quite inaccurate itself. You make a false "straw man" intepretation of what Dave wrote and then knock it down.

Let me explain :

1. Bad dealer - You go against this by saying that the dealor was very helpful to the boat owners. Apart from the various reports that I have that actually say the opposite the comment "bad dealor" also refers to how the dealor handles himselfs towards his suppliers and the policy choices he makes. I can assure you that behind the scene quite some bad stuff was going on. The dealor managed to alienate a big group of (important) people in a rather short time. This included his suppliers. Without a supplier a dealer is dead. Without a dealor a class is in serious trouble. This all happened in, what, 18 months ? Like every story, this story will be more nuanced in several aspects and "bad dealor" maybe a bit simplistic but inaccurate ? I don't know, there is definately a case to be had that supports that.


2. Daggerboards leaked - You go on the defense by stating "so have Marstrom rudders and centerboards on Tornados." I don't know about you but I think this only means that Marstroms daggerboards and rudders are bad as well. There is absolutely no need to have leaking daggerboards or rudders. Scores of other builders, some pretty low tech, don't seem to have trouble making dependable boards that don't leak and are of a normal weight. Most noticeable in this respect are of course the I-20 and F18 boards. None had ever this problem. Neither did any of the Boyer boats.


3. Just sailed bad - Bob, you reply to this by saying something like : "it won several races just the same,..., later it was upgraded to be more managaeable in a breeze, ..., a fully redesigned and pimped-up individual boat finally sailed really well". This actually sounds to me that you admit that the basic design was NOT that good overall. I think Dave was commenting on the basic production model that was sold and promoted. None of the Gunboat upgrades (and they were quite extensive) ever made it to the production version. Clearly you implictly state yourself that there was significant room for improvement (upgrades). And the fact that it sailed well in some bouy races (on lakes ; like catfight) didn't help the boat much in the Tybee 500 which proved to be the design swan song. The comments from some of the HT sailors in that distance race were quite clear. I'm agree with you that the new gunboat would have handled the Tybee 500 alot better, but that doesn't change the verdict on the production version. Actually Dave himself actually wrote :"It would be a good lake boat with flat and deep water and light winds." This was exactly the situation in which the HT did well at Springfever 2002.


4. Hull leaked - Actually Dave never wrote down that the hulls leaked, you introduced this yourself, you can't go off on Dave for this. Dave did say that boats didn't have emergency floatation in the hulls, you didn't contest that.





So basically you agree with Dave here ? The fact that Bim (and ONLY BIM) uses this inferiour joining technique also for their other products doesn't make it any better. Also it is quite a thing to ask a 12.000 US$ customer to sand down his new hulls and smooth out the keel line and decks himself. What are you paying 12.000 US$ for exactly ? No wonder the F18 and I-20 were prefered by customers, here you don't have the finish-up the boat yourself because the builder had questionable quality procedures. Ohh, and I can witness that we are not only talking about some seam tape here. The boats that I examed at Springfever 2002 actually had misaligned hull halves. This means that the "seams" were created by one hull halve protruding past the other halve.


So I would say that your comments are pretty inaccurate Bob and even in an obvious way. He'll I'm an outsider and can still can call faul on most of your comments without much effort.

I'm sorry,

Wouter