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concepts -ideas for new 20 ft cat designs #64998
01/18/06 02:49 PM
01/18/06 02:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
C
Carl Offline OP
journeyman
Carl  Offline OP
journeyman
C

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96

I,ve always had a keen interest in multihull designs .

What would be your ideal 20 ?
specs -weight beam sail area etc
special features - reefing system --righting system

What innovation should occur ?

planning hull configurations --foilers ?
lifting spin ? angulat adjustment rigging ?

It's winter , each year at this time I attempt a few designs and atempt to tink through innovative ideas to experiment with .

I would enjoy reading about others --

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Re: concepts -ideas for new 20 ft cat designs [Re: Carl] #64999
01/18/06 04:33 PM
01/18/06 04:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Might I suggest "ease of use"? I love(d) my N20 because it was well laid out. Most of my collegues agree. Only issue they have is that some of the control lines were hard to handle (especially in a blow).

Also, a lot of minor control lines were customized by teams to run back to the driver (crew had too many lines to worry about already). Maybe opt for that layout, too...

Figure out some leverage on the spin sheet, up the ratio on the downhaul, and a lot more people would want to drive them...


Jay

Re: concepts -ideas for new 20 ft cat designs [Re: waterbug_wpb] #65000
01/19/06 12:02 PM
01/19/06 12:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
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Carl Offline OP
journeyman
Carl  Offline OP
journeyman
C

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
Agree W B

sorry for all my typos --whewww --I need glasses .

The I-20 is a good cat, I,ve raced one in 6 dirrerent
W-1000s and Tybee 500 races and a Nacra 6/0 in 2 before that . It is a vast improvement over the 6/0 .

I'm ready for something lighter faster and easier to sail as you suggest in modifications to one.

The modifications made for ocean distance racing are different than typical bouys racing set-ups.

The Marstom 20 is a beautifull cat design but the price tag is more than most wish to spend on a beach cat .

I would like to see major design innovation in both the platform and rig-sail configurations .

have fun

Re: concepts -ideas for new 20 ft cat designs [Re: Carl] #65001
01/20/06 09:02 AM
01/20/06 09:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
I like the M20 as well (except the price tag), but it's still tough to yank that spinnaker all day at Steeplechase (for example) in a moderate breeze.

Only issues I have (and it's solely based on my observations) with the M20 is that it seems a bit fragile. The last three occasions I have sailed against it, it broke somehow (forward shroud broke, mast base broke, and I think someone said there was a problem once with the rudder system). I like the wider beam, but I can see that most of us want something we can trailer easily (and double stack if necessary). I don't like the tilt-trailer concept. The additional setup time for boats like the ARC 22 work for me, but not for most of the buying public.

Looking at the layout from a "wuss" standpoint, a 2:1 traveler and a 2:1 spin sheet should do the trick. Maybe an 8:1 downhaul (I think it's a 6:1 now) and rotator. That way I can work those two with one hand.

I can handle the 6:1 mainsheet for now, mainly because I think an 8:1 might have issues responding fast enough...

I'm trying to figure out what the minimum spin sheet strength I would need to handle the N20 and M20 spin in wind 15-30 kts, as I have an idea of a way to do it without too much weight/windage...


Jay

Re: concepts -ideas for new 20 ft cat designs [Re: Carl] #65002
01/21/06 12:45 PM
01/21/06 12:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
veteran
TEAMVMG  Offline
veteran

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
What about trying those curved asymetric daggerboards that the 60' trimarans have. The more that you put them down, the more lift you get. They also give lift to windward too.

Imagine sailing to windward flying a hull and then the leeward hull lifts out of the water too!!!!!!

Paul


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: concepts -ideas for new 20 ft cat designs [Re: waterbug_wpb] #65003
01/24/06 11:26 PM
01/24/06 11:26 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 576
BobG Offline
addict
BobG  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 576
Does'nt it break after it's won the event though!

Re: concepts -ideas for new 20 ft cat designs [Re: TEAMVMG] #65004
01/25/06 12:07 AM
01/25/06 12:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL, USA
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Lance Offline
enthusiast
Lance  Offline
enthusiast
L

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL, USA
Have you checked out Maaca's Super Taipan? 10' beam, carbon fibre mast and beams on a set of Taipan 5.7 hulls. To me, I think this is close to what I would like in a big cat - light, responsive, yet durable. I don't think there's any reason for cats to be 400 lbs any more but they still have to be able to take some abuse and last 10 years or more. My biggest dissapointment with the F18 class is the weight of the boats. It's a shame that everyone is shelling out tens of thousands of dollars on these boats yet they are of an old school build quality. The new Capricorn out sails the 5.7 due to it's updated hull design. Imagine what it would do if it were 120 lbs lighter? The same goes for all of the boats in that class. Being lighter also makes these boats more responsive in lighter winds, widening the rage of good, enjoyable sailing. In 8 knots of wind my old TheMightyHobie18 would just be putting along, a Taipan in the same wind is hauling butt with it's sailors double trapped.


Lance
Taipan 5.7 USA 182
Palm Harbor, FL
Re: concepts -ideas for new 20 ft cat designs [Re: Lance] #65005
01/26/06 06:15 PM
01/26/06 06:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
How expensive are 10'carbon beams?


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: concepts -ideas for new 20 ft cat designs [Re: arbo06] #65006
01/27/06 06:38 AM
01/27/06 06:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline
veteran
phill  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
Eric,
Regarding carbon beams:-
Of greatest importance is the cross sectional dimension of the beams and how beams are attach to the hulls. Believe it or not this is more significant than if they are made of carbon or aluminium.

An interesting point is the greatest benfit came from carbon beams in the A class when they started gluing the beams to the hulls.
But with a 10ft beam that is not such an attractive option as you have a monster that can not be broken down to store in the off season.

We have focussed on the key aspects of tortional stiffness when working on the Blade F18 and developed a system that provideds a platform 4 times stiffer (in tortional) than other F18 platforms that we have measured.

It is my personal view that anyone paying for carbon beams and not gluing them in or doing anything special to attach them could be just buying bragging rights.

BTW:-Macca's beams are aluminium.

This is just the way I see it.

Regards,
Phill [Linked Image]

Attached Files
65815-air.jpg (249 downloads)

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: concepts -ideas for new 20 ft cat designs [Re: phill] #65007
01/27/06 05:06 PM
01/27/06 05:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL, USA
L
Lance Offline
enthusiast
Lance  Offline
enthusiast
L

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL, USA
Quote
BTW:-Macca's beams are aluminium. Phill


My bad, Phil is correct. Maaca has al beams and a carbon mast.
Here is a pic of Maaca's Taipan:
[Linked Image]

Attached Files
65845-DSCF0479.JPG (230 downloads)

Lance
Taipan 5.7 USA 182
Palm Harbor, FL
Re: concepts -ideas for new 20 ft cat designs [Re: Lance] #65008
04/13/06 06:14 AM
04/13/06 06:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Macca and I swapped boats in a club race and I got to race the beast for the first time in a race. Must say it was by far and away the sweetest boat I have ever sailed. Very light and responsive as well as powerful and efficient. When hit by a gust upwind, she behaved like an A class. Just crank on the main and she wants to point higher and higher.

The first upwind we were left for dead by the Tornadoes and gave them about a half a leg lead by after the first lap. This was because we were sailing too low and fast on the upwinds. Once we got a feel for sailing it, we reeled in the Ts at a rapid rate..... On the same tack. The big Taipan was just so much quicker than the Ts in a straight line. We came around the bottom buoy just behind 2 well sailed Capricorns, sailed under them, around, cranked it to weather, out pointed the Capricorns and pulled more than 100 meters on them in a matter of minutes whilst catching the Big T in the process. Left all the F18s and Tornadoes in shock.......

By the way, I believe Macca's beast is closer to 11 feet wide. Has not been realy measured as yet.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



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