Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: hobiegary] #65383
01/25/06 02:02 PM
01/25/06 02:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 141
Panama City Beach, FL
steveh Offline
member
steveh  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 141
Panama City Beach, FL
Gary, could you please post the link in the tinyurl link? For whatever reason, I can't get tinyurls.


-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #65384
01/25/06 04:39 PM
01/25/06 04:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi...
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi...
Quote
Connor & co did not know anything about the boat the kiwis already had buildt in secret, before they challenged, except the length and width (and boy, was the kiwi boat wide!). The kiwis was obviously thinking "outside the box", and to catch up they needed something really spectacular.
I was in Auckland just after Conner lost the Cup to the Kiwis. I was walking around the port area and saw both Black Magic and the humungous challenger on the hard. The failed challenge boat made Black Magic look like a Sabot.

They were both close to the YC where the Cup was kept. I looked in the front door and it was sitting in a case just inside. That didn't last long because some nutter took a hammer to it.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: Mary] #65385
01/25/06 07:32 PM
01/25/06 07:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Quote
I am told the soft-sail Stars & Stripes is in Florida, currently owned by somebody in the Tampa/St. Pete area. I have notes about this and the name of the owner in one of my notebooks, but can't find it right now.


When I was looking for the pic I read something about it being in Key West availible for charter. I didn't pay attention to date so that may have been a while ago. That would be the soft sail version.


Have Fun
Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: steveh] #65386
01/25/06 07:40 PM
01/25/06 07:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
hobiegary Offline
old hand
hobiegary  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf


Santa Monica Bay
Mystere 6.0 "Whisk" <--- R.I.P.
Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: scooby_simon] #65387
01/25/06 08:04 PM
01/25/06 08:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...


Shame it was not the same shape or even anything like the boat that was challenged in.

It did turn the AC in to what it is now, so I suppose it was progress. [/quote]

Fay (I think that was his name) got what he deserved.


Have Fun
Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: catman] #65388
01/25/06 11:19 PM
01/25/06 11:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
old hand
dacarls  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
1. Perhaps a mast-top winglet system would actually work in wave-piercing cats like A-class cats: Since pitching is not helpful to this concept, the wave-piercers seem to do it less.
2. Has anyone actually tried measuring pitching in wave piercers vs lets say- Marstrom conventional hull shapes?
This could be done from a digital video tape or a CD: at 1 second intervals, measure angle of mast rake for each boat. They should be sailing parallel to another to weather in appreciable waves for several minutes.
Put data on Excel sheet, (or by some magic maths which I do not possess)---determine which pitches less, and how much less!


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: dacarls] #65389
01/26/06 02:01 AM
01/26/06 02:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
SS soft sail and wing together

Attached Files
65757-746414_1.jpg (117 downloads)

Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #65390
01/26/06 02:08 AM
01/26/06 02:08 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
SnS soft sail

Attached Files
65758-SnS.JPG (97 downloads)

Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #65391
01/26/06 02:12 AM
01/26/06 02:12 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
SnS wing sail as it sits today...... I downloaded these pics from an advertisement advertising it for sail..... Cannot remeber the site now.

Boat was used for chartered crusies and the boat is very run down..... The wing is riddled with spiders on the inside.

Attached Files
65759-746414_5.jpg (119 downloads)

Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #65392
01/26/06 02:14 AM
01/26/06 02:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
2nd

Attached Files
65760-746414_7.jpg (101 downloads)

Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #65393
01/26/06 02:15 AM
01/26/06 02:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
3rd

Attached Files
65761-746414_2.jpg (121 downloads)

Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #65394
01/26/06 10:29 AM
01/26/06 10:29 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
can't imagine that its too good for the boat to sit there with the hard wing up.

Imagine if a squall came down through there from the wrong direction... ouch!

Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: Inter_Michael] #65395
01/26/06 10:41 AM
01/26/06 10:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 338
Nimrod Offline
enthusiast
Nimrod  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 338
Winglets are vertical extensions of wingtips that improve an aircraft's fuel efficiency and cruising range. Designed as small airfoils, winglets reduce the aerodynamic drag associated with vortices that develop at the wingtips as the airplane moves through the air. By reducing wingtip drag, fuel consumption goes down and range is extended.

Aircraft of all types and sizes are flying with winglets -- from single-seat hang gliders and ultralights to global jumbo jets. Some aircraft are designed and manufactured with sleek upturned winglets that blend smoothly into the outer wing sections. Add-on winglets are also custom made for many types of aircraft.

Since the 1970s, when the price of aviation fuel began spiraling upward, airlines and aircraft manufacturers have looked at many ways to improve the operating efficiency of their aircraft. Winglets have become one of the industry's most visible fuel-saving technologies and their use continues to expand.
Winglets increase an aircraft's operating efficiency by reducing what is called induced drag at the tips of the wings. An aircraft's wing is shaped to generate negative pressure on the upper surface and positive pressure on the lower surface as the aircraft moves forward. This unequal pressure creates lift across the upper surface and the aircraft is able to leave the ground and fly.
Unequal pressure, however, also causes air at each wingtip to flow outward along the lower surface, around the tip, and inboard along the upper surface producing a whirlwind of air called a wingtip vortex. The effect of these vortices is increased drag and reduced lift that results in less flight efficiency and higher fuel costs.

Winglets, which are airfoils operating just like a sailboat tacking upwind, produce a forward thrust inside the circulation field of the vortices and reduce their strength. Weaker vortices mean less drag at the wingtips and lift is restored. Improved wing efficiency translates to more payload, reduced fuel consumption, and a longer cruising range that can allow an air carrier to expand routes and destinations.

To produce as much forward thrust as possible, the winglet's airfoil is designed with the same attention as the airfoil of the wings themselves. Performance improvements generated by winglets, however, depend on factors such as the basic design of the aircraft, engine efficiency, and even the weather in which an aircraft is operating.

The shapes and sizes of winglets, and the angles at which they are mounted with respect to the main wings, differ between the many types and sizes of aircraft produced but they all represent improved efficiency. Throughout the aviation industry, winglets are responsible for increased mileage rates of as much as 7%.
Aircraft manufacturers and makers of add-on winglets have also reported improved cruising speeds, time-to-climb rates, and higher operating altitudes.
The use of winglets throughout the aviation industry in the U.S. and overseas is constantly growing. Winglets now appear on powerless hang gliders soaring above mountain ridges and from seaside cliffs. Sailplane builders around the world have included blended winglets to their designs and the sleek, graceful gliders are silently soaring farther than ever Corporate-size Learjet's were the first commercial aircraft to use winglets. Now, several decades later, winglets are incorporated into the designs of many other business jets such as Gulfstreams and the Global Express: a new aircraft built by Lear's parent company, Bombardier.

Retrofitting winglets to existing business jets is also a fast-growing market within the aviation industry itself. Many winglet marketing firms report their products help increase aircraft roll rates and lower approach and takeoff speeds.

Winglets are now quite common on large jetliners and many tower as high as six feet. The first big jetliner to carry the innovation into the air was the MD-11, originally designed and built by McDonnell-Douglas and now part of the Boeing aerospace family. Other Boeing aircraft flying with winglets are the 747-400F, the version currently being built, Boeing BBJ business jets which are custom-built 737s, and the C-17 military transport. Boeing is also offering winglet options on new advanced models of the 737 series of passenger jets.

Most prominent foreign carrier of winglets are the many models of the 300 series of jetliners designed and built by Airbus Industries. The future A380 Airbus, a huge intercontinental double-deck jetliner now under development, will also utilize winglet technology.

The first homebuilts with winglets on the general aviation market were the Vari-Eze and Long-Eze models designed by Burt Rutan, a pioneer in aircraft design innovations. Now, the majority of homebuilt aircraft coming out of shops, garages, and hangars around the world display winglets of varying shapes and sizes.




Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: calcheck] #65396
01/26/06 10:44 AM
01/26/06 10:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
I had an e-mail discussion a while back with Dave Ellis. I had asked him his opinion about the possibility of masthead floats being designed so they actually give lift, and the possibilities of having fixed or articulating masthead winglets (which he refers to as end plates). Here is one of his responses, and I found it very interesting:

Quote
Horizontal airfoils. I like it.
In the late 60s the A-cats and C's at Cabrillo Beach YC, Long Beach, CA, used "end plate" booms. Some used a wishbone down low with Dacron filling it in. Others used a normal, for the day, boom with Ocumme ply wings. We made sure that it was very slightly HIGHER at the clew. This was not to lift the boat, but to compress the air and make the air lift. If the Park Avenue Boom thing angled down, we felt it would blanket part of the bottom of the sail.
The old Suicide class (ask Bill Roberts) was anything-goes in monohull, but with only 125 square feet of actual sail area, including mast. It became very efficient, using an A-cat style mast and wishbone main, 1950's and 60's materials, of course. Tried was an end plate on the top of the mast. Again, it was more for reducing tip vortex than lift, although it was angled up on the front for the same reason the boom was angled down on the tack. The class ruled that they had to count the tip deflector as sail area, so it was quickly abandoned.(Most booms on dinghies are faster with the boom lower at the clew, It makes for leading edge foot, instead of trailing with its tip vortex and loss of pressure under the boom.)
On the Suicide, wind resistance on the spars and hull was a major design consideration. Many of the hulls looked like missiles or long cigars to try to cut the wind. It helped.
I'm no scientist. I do teach racing for Offshore and North U so have lots of feedback from clients. I think a wing would work IF it were not counted sail area.
In windsurfing, the sailor can re-align the sail to near-horizontal and catch air to a remarkable degree. But it also slows the board so that when it floats to the water it is barely moving ahead. If he had two sails, one to go and one to lift, hmmm. Kites are the obvious answer. I'm trying to figure out how to control it alone while sailing single-handed.
Of course, a well-designed asymmetrical chute lifts our bows. Most of the time.
I have built a Formula 14 as a test-bed. I really don't care about a Portsmouth # for it. Hydrofoils will be later. I want to try it the way it is first.
But you have made me think about a wing at the top of the mast that I can also use to keep the windsurfing sail from de-powering as fast by tiny blocks and lines leading down ala C-cat wing masts to keep the fathead leach from falling off so much. The top-mast wing would help the tip vortex thing and maybe lift the boat a bit. Kites do. Or maybe the drag would negate any advantage.
We who care not about design rules get to experiment and spend our time and money!
Dave Ellis

Last edited by Mary; 01/26/06 10:48 AM.
Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: Inter_Michael] #65397
01/26/06 03:37 PM
01/26/06 03:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 138
California!
Inter_Michael Offline OP
member
Inter_Michael  Offline OP
member

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 138
California!
Thank you very much for all the info. Great stuff. I like the idea of using something more 'aerodynamic' than the traditional hobie bob 'football' at the masthead.

Michael


Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: Inter_Michael] #65398
01/27/06 07:10 PM
01/27/06 07:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 192
WEST. MICH. USA
DVL Offline
member
DVL  Offline
member

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 192
WEST. MICH. USA
Not only for airplanes. Big butt Fans has added wing tip vortex's to the large overhead fans used in industry to cool factories. These fans operate at lower speeds, generate more air flow. Apparently the engineers have tested with software, wind tunnels, and independent testing.

www.BigAssFans.com

Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: DVL] #65399
01/30/06 11:35 PM
01/30/06 11:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13
P
paul57man Offline
stranger
paul57man  Offline
stranger
P

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13
I have used endplates on my RC boat they seem to greatly improve the sail's power, even if the head is twisting off a bit. I even made up a big carbon one (650mm) for my taipan but have never got a chance to rig it up yet.

Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: paul57man] #65400
01/31/06 04:25 AM
01/31/06 04:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
veteran
Jalani  Offline
veteran

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Picture please?


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: Inter_Michael] #65401
01/31/06 10:56 AM
01/31/06 10:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
The concept of an automatic inflation chicken float attached to a square top main and shaped as a winglet has been discussed a couple of years ago in this forum.

The idea was to improve safety and the challenge remains the same: how to maintain or improve performance through the winglet shape, given the losses due to more weight in a bad place (high).

If my memory doesn't fail, the chosen inflation system was a paintball gas cartridge and the winglet-float would be attached to the sail instead of the mast to facilitate maintenance.

Luiz


Luiz
Re: Sails, Wings, and Winglets [Re: Luiz] #65402
02/01/06 09:13 AM
02/01/06 09:13 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



This is why the genoas on racing mono hulls are so annoyingly low. The deck acts like a winglet to separate the pressures until the trailing edge.

Matt

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 431 guests, and 84 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1