Alright...before someone butchers it, I'll start the poll.

I don't know how you can establish an anonymous poll for this topic and not acheive some level of hipocrasy.

Point taken...jacka$$ But you can still only vote once from each computer you own.

For those who can look past the "hipocrasy" the poll is HERE

Hi Mary

The info on boat builder, and sail maker, weight etc. etc is not available because it is difficult to collect.

If you register with paper and pencil... NO body will fill out all of that info... AND furthermore No Race Committe wants to type that into a scoring program either.

With online registration which uses a database of sailors who fill out this info on their boat just once! You can easily collect and put this information into scoring programs. Now you may publish the information in many different ways that different consumers would like to see.

Horay for sailregattas.com and sailwave.com!!


However, the data are essential but the real value comes from a knowledgable sailor who is able to interpret the data and sumarize what it means. For example Bob Hodges summarized the A cat midwinters with respect to all of these factors and his judgment about what matters on the race course was priceless.

Mark

I always felt a desire to see Hobie corp list the building dates of the boat next to the sailor names so that we all can tell how competitive, say, a 10 year old hobie is. Together with what batch the sails came from. This will all be in the good towards potential buyers of these boat and that can never be a wrong thing. Yet, somehow I feel that Hobie will never agree to that.



I feel that the F18 class should NOT produce the boat makes next to the sailors. For one thing halve the F18's are heavily modified anyway, when ALOT of people think that the top 3 spots were taken on a stock Hobie Tiger ! Lets face it guys; in principle there are 150 makes of F18's at the worlds not 11 !

F18 class should call everything an F18 when it measures in and not how it originally started life as.

Wouter

I think the idea is to list the manufacturer of the HULL. In a formula class I think everyone knows that it is possible for pretty much everything else on the boat to come from a variety of sources and be rigged in a variety of creative ways.

Just like NASCAR fans all know that the Chevy racing on the track is not the Chevy you can buy off the showroom floor.

So you're telling me that my front-wheel drive Ford Taurus ISN'T identical to the NASCAR Ford Taurus? Dang salesman....

To complicate things, it should also be pointed out that listing the manufacturer is not necessarily the answer to supplying the information people want. People want to know the hull shape/design.

For example, Vectorworks Marine is now making two boats for the F16 class -- the Blade and the G-Cat. If the results listed Vectorworks as the manufacturer (VEC), this would not tell people what they really want to know.

SO, I guess what we are really talking about is the specific model/design of hull rather than who built it. The builder would be a secondary item of interest.

Who cares?

For the data to be truly relevant, it would be necessary to get the SAME sailor sailing ALL the different brand boats, in the SAME conditions, enough TIMES to get sufficient data points for a STATISTICAL ANALYSIS.

Anything else is conjecture. Geeks rule.

That would only show that that particular sailor is able to sail any brand of boat and win on it. And we all know sailors who can do that. So the statistics would only tell us about that sailor, not about the boats.

The only thing it would prove is that if you are a good enough sailor, you can sail any brand of boat in a formula class and be a winner, which would be very good for the formula concept.

Many Formula builders makes small upgrades to their hulls each year, Do you want the year of build listed as well ? The Tigers hulls from 2002 onward have stiffening subdecks among other things.

Hell, the F16 class allows the use of different materials for the hull manufacture; like Kevlar, glass and carbon. Not to forget the resin used. Polyester, vinylester or Epoxy. Hell, I nearly forget the Timber/epoxy boats. Do you want to see all that listed as well ?

Were does it end ? And what do you think you can learn from a condensed info list. There are just so many variables and most of them many nothing when compared to differences in sailing skills.

Wouter

Wouter

You are correct about many possibly irrelevant variables however... you are missing the point.

The point is ... Do you want the class to shape the story of the event...whether it be about sailors, boats, masts, sails, Kewpie dolls on the spin pole, etc.... OR do you the reader want to interpret the results from a dataset that is a bit more robust. Taking the point about boat specs to the extreme does not invalidate the latter perspective.

Everyone's focus on the event will be different... eg as a North American... when I look at texel results... I look at the boat and then for names I recognize... You however, know those sailors and look at the event the other way. To each their own.

If I sail an A cat... at 210 lbs... I want to know who else is sailing at that weight and what equipment they selected. Is it worthless information... who knows... but it would make me happy and interested in the class, and increase the comfort level I have when I shop for a boat.

That's the point of publishing the full set of results and data. .. Otherwise... just hand everyone a peice of paper with their finish position and call it a day.

Mark

I think my point wasn't clear. Not just one sailor, but let's have N how many sailors, the same group of sailors, competing against each other. A round robin, if you will.

If a trend appears favoring any particular boat, it would certainly show, and you've reduced your variables.

F'rinstance:
Sailor X sails Formula Z in 5 races, wins four times;
Sailor X sails Formula Y in 5 races, wins two times;
Sailor X sails Formula U in 5 races, wins once;

Formula Z is looking pretty good to me. Now, let's see if Sailor Y and Sailor U show a trend with the same boats, etc.

The situation I suggest is actually basic experimental procedure. My suggestion is of course describing an ideal situation. In fact, it would be made even more accurate by having these people race the same competition every time as well.

See what I mean? My point is, you gotta reduce variability before you make comparisons. Or else get a REAL large, UNBIASED, sample size. As if. That's what the marketing departments are paid to avoid.

sea ya
tami

How about this idea:
Make an online database that everyone could submit their boat make, year, sail number, sails, etc... I'm sure if it is placed in an excel format or another database format then it could be imported with the results from Sailwave. While far from being the perfect solution you would be able to look up each racer and details about them and their boat. I think it would be pretty cool to see information such as years of racing experience, crew weight, etc....
You would at least be able to get information on some of the sailors and their boats.

Great idea Lance, who said anything about perfection, just a bio sheet, if you will, of sailor/s and boat.

Something like this? http://www.ussailing.org/olympics/RolexMiamiOCR/results/tornado_06.html

This has links to the sailors bio, but it is not filled out for everyone, but interesting idea.

Wouter,

While I fully appreciate the pride you must have in building your own boat, based on your point of view........shouldn't your "signature" simply read, F-16.

Just wondering.

This is kind of what I was thinking of. Make a simple form for people to submit their info. One volunteer for each sailing club could gather the information and submit it for anyone who doesn't have internet access (with their permission, of course)

ooo... "racing experience"
Could someone put "I suck, but looking to improve"?

Oh man... this can't be good. I agree with Wouter!