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The first question : weight corrections or use jib #663
07/12/01 07:20 AM
07/12/01 07:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
The draft rules have been made up. They will be displye at the F16 HT webpage after a few last points have been cleared up :
<br>
<br>One of these points is performance equalisation for crews of different weight.
<br>
<br>Introduction :
<br>
<br>THe F16 HT designs are made equal by requiring that they are designed with certain features and by altering the jibsize according to a formula. This formula relates a set of parameters (measurements) to a maximum allowed jib sailarea size at which the boats as the same performance as the F18 class. Yes, you've read it right as the F18 class. Crewweight is one of the parameters present in the formula. This means that crew of different weights sail different jibsizes.
<br>
<br>The Question :
<br>
<br>Do you, when you are presented with the choice, rather
<br>
<br>-1- buy only one jibsize optimized for your normal crewweight and take the performance hit when overweight and not race when underweight. (last is only at 2-up sailing, solo sails always.
<br>
<br>-2- have to buy and sail more than one jib. Example, one optimized sized jib and one at minimum size. (this way you can never sail underweight.
<br>
<br>-3- Have the weight range divided in more than one weight group and fix one jib size to each group
<br>
<br>-4- Have the weight range divided in more than one weight group and fix one jib size to each group and have corrector weights attached to your boats to get you up to the reference weight of your group
<br>
<br>-5- Use one jib size and attach (maybe large) weights to your boat to make your boats have the weight that equals its preformance to the F18 class.
<br>
<br>-6- Just fix the end preformance to the F18 and leave to choice wether to adhere to this via multiple jibs or corrector weights or an combination of this to the sailor/crew. This means working with a simple formula to calculate the values needed for this.
<br>
<br>-7- Other option ?
<br>
<br>
<br>Please answer with the number of your prefered option in the subjectline. By the way please choice 3 three options in order of preference, starting with the most preferred.
<br>
<br>Thank you
<br>
<br>Wouter
<br><br><br>


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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Re: The first question- I pick #6, 4, 2. [Re: Wouter] #664
07/12/01 08:16 PM
07/12/01 08:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 344
Arkansas, USA
Kirt Offline
enthusiast
Kirt  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 344
Arkansas, USA
Wouter-
<br>My choices are #6 first, then #4 and #2.
<br>I think it's critical that it be SIMPLE! That is: simple to apply, simple to check, simple in concept, and (relatively) simple to afford.
<br>
<br>MO,
<br>Kirt<br><br>Kirt Simmons
<br>Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48

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665- (195 downloads)

Kirt Simmons Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48
option 6 ; option 2; option 7 [Re: Wouter] #665
07/13/01 05:31 AM
07/13/01 05:31 AM

A
Anonymous
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Anonymous
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A



I like the freedom and the flexibility of option 6. By far my prefered option. Make boats the most equal and still allows creative equalisation for newbies and unlucky people who had a great dinner the evening before.
<br>
<br>Option 2 : I probably sail most in the solo configuration so I will just buy the minimum sized jib and race always. I'll just take the performance hit and beat you guys on exceptional good boat handling. Maximum hit performancewise according to Wouters Calculator is some 2,5 % sec. When I get a dedicated crew and race seriously I'll just buy an optimized jibsize.
<br>
<br>Option 7 : That is actually option 1 with the addition that a crew is allowed to -undo- their underweightness by carying weights. I do believe however that a the weigth range must be devided into blocks of say 5 kilograms. I haven't calculated this through.
<br>
<br>Anonimous4<br><br>

Re: The first question : weight corrections or use jib [Re: Wouter] #666
07/13/01 12:57 PM
07/13/01 12:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
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phill Offline

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phill  Offline

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Posts: 1,449
Personally I don't like carrying weights on a boat to make up for crew weight.
<br>
<br>Crew weight is dynamic, Ie moveable balast and in some conditions can be beneficial and others harmful to performance. Weights carried on a boat will usually be just harmful to performance.
<br>
<br> Also I don't like the idea of crews carrying weights on them. It is probably the only way carrying weight can work fairly but it just seems unsafe. In theory it shouldn't be if the life jacket is rated for the weight but it still bothers me.
<br>
<br>In fact I don't even like the idea of weighing crews at all.
<br>They can have their sails cut to match their weight as the A class guys do.
<br>
<br>My preferred option would be 7- set it and forget it (sail size that is) my second preference would be two weight ranges and two jib sizes. Which I think is option 3.
<br>
<br>Most people sail with the same crew and if that crew is not available the rule allows you to go single handed.
<br>so if your weighing crews how do you even up the single handers.
<br>
<br>I must point out that I've never sailed in a class where crew weight counted, only minimum boat weight. Given that I'm probably a little one eyed.<br><br>

Attached Files
676- (201 downloads)

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: The first question : weight corrections or use jib [Re: Wouter] #667
07/13/01 01:19 PM
07/13/01 01:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 28
Florida
Jon Hamlet Offline
newbie
Jon Hamlet  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 28
Florida
I agree with Option 6 as being the preferred. Like Phill, I have always raced where the boat weight was criteria firest, and corrector weights if the crew weight was below minimum. I do not think weights on the crew are either safe nor practical; however, a sigle weight attached to the boat at or under the mast or dolphin striker normally does the trick. I have on occasion raced my Hobie 18 Magnums single with weights to get me to minimum, but 95% of the time I was the heaviest crew around since I'm almost 200 myself, and getting to the 240# minimum was quite easy with any crew. I usually raced closer to 330-360#.
<br>
<br>Option 6 is my choice with Option 4 second choice.
<br>
<br>Jon Hamlet
<br>Taipan 4.9 #217.<br><br>

Attached Files
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Re: The first question : weight corrections or use jib [Re: phill] #668
07/13/01 09:05 PM
07/13/01 09:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
In the one -up configuration (without jib) I'll opt for set-it and forget it like Phill put it. Just like the A-class. Handling is far more important with the genaker and all and lack of the venturi effect of the jib on the mainsail. Differences in weight in 1 -up crews is statistically the halve of 2-up crews. So I think that equal chance to win are pretty much covered bythe points named and no need exist for an extra equality rule apart from miinimum craft weight etc.
<br>
<br>2-up : alternative 6 , let everyone decide for himself
<br>
<br>2nd choice : alternative 2. Cheapest for me and simplest to administer. A weighing scale and a tape measure. I dislike weights and I think they are a hazard whe the become undone.
<br>
<br>3rd : alternative 3. I still hate weights, Comes closest to alternative 6 and 2
<br><br><br>


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Sorry 2-up : 6:2:3 ; 1-up set and forget like Phil [Re: Wouter] #669
07/13/01 09:11 PM
07/13/01 09:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter<br><br>


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Jon choice : 6 :4; "not specified" [Re: Jon Hamlet] #670
07/13/01 09:13 PM
07/13/01 09:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
For the overview<br><br>


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Phill choices 7 (set and forget) ; 3 ; unspecified [Re: phill] #671
07/13/01 09:15 PM
07/13/01 09:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
For the overview<br><br>


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: The first question : weight corrections or use jib [Re: Wouter] #672
07/17/01 05:21 PM
07/17/01 05:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 183
john p Offline
member
john p  Offline
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Posts: 183
I agree with Phil on this one, option 7 first, just set the minimum craft weight. the reality of the f18 set up is that everyone tries to get to the position where they carry the large jib and no corrector weights, at last years uk f18 champs I and a lot of other people were glugging down vast quantities of water just before the weigh in, and i didnt see anyone using a small jib. this makes the rule a bit pointless, complicated and potentially expensive for people who have different crews. the reality of sailboat racing is that pretty much what ever you do the big guys go better in heavy airs and small people win in the light stuff, uit usually evens out. keep it simple. Also we want to make lightweight boats what is the point of putting lead on them. As someone else pointed out the rig can be optimised for high or low power and this will probably even out the weight difference more than adding lead and altering sail size.
<br>
<br>2nd choice is 6 and third choice is 3 if weight bands are introduced keep it to 2.<br><br>


John Pierce

[email]stealthmarine@btinternet.com
/email]

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