Tami:

Like you said unless you are pure Native American we are ALL foreigners when Columbus stepped off the boat

Doug

Heck, you have lost me, because I'm still trying to figure out what "sensibilities" means.

I watch way too much Discovery channel. Some genetics guru says we're all related to some guy in East Africa from 60,000 years ago.

My father always said I looked strange, now I know why!

Hey Boudicca did someone pee in your wheaties this morning. You seem awfully angry over the remarks about what makes a modern design or not. I don't believe Keith ever said anything about the Polynesian design being primitive, that's something that you read into it.

Why are some of you guys taking this stuff so personally? Aren't there more important things in your lives to get worked up about?

Alec

What's your problem? Gotta have a fight? Want to lay frustration from previous crap in this thread on my head? Whatever.

By sprit I meant bowsprit. Yes, crabclaws, junks, lateens, etc. all came before. The use of sails themselves came before. The idea of something that can float came before from somewhere else. Doesn't mean that there are not modern versions.

My comment about Polynesian sensibilities was only because you seemed to believe that only you had knowledge of their contributions - the "do your research" line ticked me off. It was actually meant tongue in cheek. Sorry. Never said anything or claimed anything about battened sails, and if you knew me (which you don't) you'd realize that the eurocentric remark is pretty stupid. But yes, I must claim european as my ancestral roots. Because of that I must have never known that fully battened sails were not an invention of Hobie Alter - NOT. Chinese junks you say? Never heard of 'em. I'll have to look that up.

Yes, narrow v-bottomed hulls are pretty old. Do we all use them these days? No. Is that simply a refinement? Maybe. I-20s, and others use a flatter section. Your main hull (vaka) on your F-27 although narrow, is flatter on the bottom to promote planing by the main hull (even though the amas or as Farrier calls them floats are v-sectioned), and Ian likes to make that distinction with respect to other designs that follow the narrow v-shaped model, more room and faster he says. Looking to old designs for principles doesn't mean that new designs are merely copies, only influenced (although some are copies). Even Petty and Herreshoff admit to being influenced by the Polynesians. Good for them to draw on that to produce something out of the box from the conventional eurocentric thoughts and designs of their times, and to introduce the concepts to a lot of folks who though themselves to be the pinnacle.

But I still think that that the appearance of the boats from Herreshoff and Petty in the middle of what was considered at the time to be the cream of the crop of boat design as significant. Petty's larger stuff looks more like two conventional ships joined at the hip. But the boats Herreshoff was trying were a little more in line with what we have today. And Amaryllis was not his only one. And the mono/multi debate at that time is certainly a preview of modern times.

Since we're all googling, here's an interesting page. It's in French, and the English link brings up a translator (not an English version of the site). Look at the configuration of Amaryllis. I may be crazy, but it bears similarities to what is sailed today.

More Stuff

Anyway, have a nice day. Relax. Take a deep breath.

What personal remarks were made? What could possibly incite you to anger? There was nothing in my remarks to infer such, and I stand by my assertions. Expression of a contrary point is debate, not aggression. If you express an opinion, expect another - that's how it goes.

Boys, if I get angry, trust me, you'll know it.

I explained myself in the previous post and said sorry, and yes, my "sensibilities" comment was again tongue in cheek. I'll make sure to label all such things as such in the future. I didn't like your assumption on what I (or most people on this forum) don't know and what sounded to me like a very condescending way to reinforce that. And then you proceeded to attack based on more assumptions. Difference of opinions and disagreements are one thing and make things fun and interesting. It didn't sound that way to me. But in retrospect that was all probably tongue in cheek too, sorry I missed it. I'm not a particularly thin-skinned person. But I ain't a newbie either.

This thread, although in the beginning had a very interesting and noble purpose, seems to be possessed by some kind malicious spirit (an ancient Polynesian God? Joking, just joking). Seems to bring out the frothing, spitting worst in people. We need to perform an exorcism. Or just go sailing. The one winter blast is done here and we're back to our winter of 60 degree days.