I hope to get an A cat soon and would like to know about maintenance.

How difficult is cosmetic care, as compared to fiberglass?

Any tips on carbon repair as compared to fiberglass?

Any dos' and don'ts' specific to carbon?

As I know absolutely nothing, ANY information will be appreciated.

Pete,

Carbon really isnt the issue. Most of the carbon will be under some other finish or gel coat or paint.

I'm assuming you are getting a production built boat. If so, its most likely going to have gel coated hulls. Maintenance is the same as any other cat, if its gel coated.

You probably want to keep the bird [censored] off the boat and keep it covered. Or sail it every day. Covers help protect the lines, the tramp, the blocks, etc from UV. Gel coat will oxidize, but thats easily fixed and takes years, just like any other cat. Keep the sun off the boat and it will oxidize less. Keep the hulls clean and a coat of fiberglass wax/cleaner once and a while is a good idea.

Depending on the type of mast you get, you can specify the coating. I would recommend you get a mast that has a UV protective finish on it, most mast builders will be happy to sell you a clear coated mast. If not its easy to do yourself with System Three water based poly. If you dont clear coat it and leave it out in the sun for a long time, the epoxy in the mast will begin to break down and the mast will weaken. Plus it looks nicer, carbon looks nicer when clear coated. Left uncoated, carbon tends to turn greyish. I got a Hall and asked to have it painted, it looks great and will be protected from UV.

If you have clear coated carbon epoxy daggers or rudders, you dont want to leave these lying around in the sun. Bimare makes their daggers clear carbon, which looks nice, but will get hot left around in the sun. Epoxy will soften when it gets hot, and depending on the chemistry of the epoxy and how it was cured, it can soften in the hot summer sun, especially if its beating down on a black surface (carbon)

Carbon repair is the same as fiberglass, its basically the same, the cloth you are using is different, but its more about the glue you are using to bind everything together. So, you need to know if your boat is polyester resin, or epoxy resin and how these work together. For example, you can put epoxy over polyester, but not the other way around.

Carbon will get in your skin and itch like fiberglass when you sand it, so wear long sleeves and wear a dust mast, all common sense stuff. Dont get epoxy on your skin, it can cause you to be sensitized to it and then you absolutely cannot be around it for the rest of your life.

Read West's epoxy manual. It has all the info you need on epoxy.

Other than that, you need to be careful with your boat, you cant run it up on the beach, and you have to tie it down when you leave it for the evening or it will fly away if its windy.

If its going to blow big, you will want to take your mast down.

And dont make fun of plywood guys like Wouter, they get very agitated and make really long posts.
Bill

Bill,

Thanks a bunch! I may have to drive all the up there just to buy you a beer! And besides, you have water I've never sailed!

btw- I'd never bad mouth plywood, I'm keepin' the Tiki.

Pete,
When considering a A cat, the thing that might be a consideration is what is the core material is in the hulls.

I would want to know what fabric (carbon, kevlar or glass), what glue (epoxy, poly) and what is the core material.

As far as core material.

You can get nomex, foam, end grain balsa cores. The carbon is the skin on the outside and inside is made stronger by being held paralell by the core. Think about an I beam truss, the web (middle part) is like the core, and the caps are like the carbon skin. the whole is stronger than the parts. The American cup teams are now using honeycombed aluminum over carbon skins. The core holds the skin in suspension and it makes it stronger as a whole system.

The A2 was balsa, and I believe they have switched to nomex. (someone correct me please if I'm wrong here)
Vectorworks marine is using corecell foam as a core.

http://www.spsystems.com/solutions/...cell_A_Foam.pdf#search='corecell%20foam'

All of these core materials have advantages and disadvantages. Nomex is the lightest of the cores, is hard to get, and it is widely used in the construction of airplanes. It lays in the molds very easily, especially the OX (overexpanded) stuff, so its a very easy choice for the homebuilder. But its a open honeycomb, so any pinholes in the skin will absorb at least a little water. Nomex is kevlar paper honeycomb, so I'm not sure if the water will pass between the cells in the honeycomb. In order to get a good bond to the nomex, you need to be very careful when you are laying up the skins.

Balsa endgrain is wood, so it will absorb water if the skin has any pin holes. But balsa is the least expensive core material and some research shows that wood holds up better to long term cyclical loading.

I went with foam, and you have different types of foam on the market, Corecell, Divinycell, Kegecell and Airex all have different properties.

The Vectorworks XJ uses Corecell, which is very stiff and will not absorb water. I think foam over carbon gives you the lightest, stiffest, and most water resistant hulls.
Foam retains its shape, so it doesnt want to lay in the hull molds, you need to either heat it or coax it in or both. Supposedly Vectorworks has this figured out and uses some combination of heat and pressure to get the foam to behave. I used a heat gun and weights. Not exactly scientific and it took forever.

Bill

A picture of ox nomex core.

Overexpanded honeycomb nomex bends easily in one plane and is rigid in the other.

Bill;

Thanks again. I'm looking at the XJ because it's close to home, but you just gave me even more reasons to go with Vectorworks.

Hi Bill,

> If its going to blow big, you will
> want to take your mast down.

Do you have a feel for the numbers..? I've been tying my (new to me) flyer down using the hulls and the trapeze wires and it seems ok in about 20mph. Last night we had 40mph forecast and so I took it down; but storage is a bit of a problem, and so I'd like to leave it up when I can... I'm not sure what my limit is though...

Also, what is the technique for taking the mast down solo. I have a hinge attachment to make it easier (see pics below) but have not successfully achieved it yet...

NB: your technical posts are great; keep em coming; I have to admit I don't even know specifically what my (AHPC) flyer is made of (other than 'carbon') - I just wanted a boat that was light, looked great and went fast

Some pics...

Hi Pete,

It's possibly just me, but I went for centre cleatless sheeting when I bought my A and just got tangled up! I've gone back to traditional rear cleated sheeting and feel much more at home (moved from F18). When I get used to the boat, I'll give it another go because the sheeting angle is in fact more comfortable, but I found it a handfull straight off... Just thought I'd mention it... Another alternative is cleated boom sheeting a-la Ben Hall I think...

Pete:

If you are going to spend serious money like me ($22,00 for a A2), get a storage unit inside. I pay $60 a month for a 10 x 20 unit. Yes I have to take mast loose and store in above the boat, but is is safe and out of the weather. Boat should look as good 5 years from now as it does when I get it.

Doug

Colin;

At this point I'm too ignorant to consider the matter!

Doug;

Good thinkin'! (that would solve some zoning issues I'm haveing trouble with)

Doug,
Yeah I agree, I keep my boats and masts inside in the winter and covered or inside in the summer. I'm toying with a covered trailer/box that I could slide the DK into and it would be protected from the UV and I could leave it more rigged for over the road.

How much wind is too much? If you are in an unprotected area I would take it down if its forecasted to be over 25-30knts. Usually a 30knot forecast is associated with some kind of weather system, so its not going to blow a steady 30, its going to be justy and probably blow 20-40, or 25-45, In a more protected area you would have to judge for yourself.

Colin,
I went with midboom sheeting, I'd rather have the sheet attached to something more solid than the tramp.

As far as whats your flyer made of? I dont know, it depends on the vintage. Could be kevlar/carbon combo, or carbon, or all kevlar. We could cut it open and see.....
You could probably email Goodall and ask. I heard they are going back to Kevlar.

Look at the inside of the hulls, black is carbon, yellow is kevlar, white is glass. The core material is hard to tell unless you can see a cross section. Smash it up and take pictures. Corecell foam is yellow, Divinycell is blue I think.

As far as if its epoxy or polyester, its hard to tell until you cut into it. Polyester has a sweeter smell than epoxy.

You should probably know what its made of so that you can be ready to fix it when (if) it breaks, its important to use the same materials so that your repair isnt harder or softer or more flexible or less flexible than the rest of the boat.

Bill

If a twister or high straight line winds come it doesn't matter where you have your boat. That is what insurance is for!!I just like to have mine out of the sun and keep the mold off it. So nice just to put mast on and go. I ALWAYS wash the sand and salt off it before I put in up. My 87 rebuilt boat looks new.

Doug

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the note.

> I went with midboom sheeting, I'd rather
> have the sheet attached to something more
> solid than the tramp.

I got used to the tramp pulling-up, but tacking, that was another thing entirely. I also found it difficult to hold upwind in anything other than the lightest of winds; but perhaps that was just the block because other folk seem to manage OK. I'll have another go at it some time in the future...

Colin,
Your flyer base hinges in the front right?

I always tie the trap lines to the beam and it provides a hinge so the mast can only move front to back, not side to side. Remember to put the pin in the mast base.

Stick your wheels or something under the bows so that the mast is leaning back and the shrouds are not carrying any of the weight. Bows should be into the wind, so the combination of wind pressure and gravity should keep the mast from moving.

Undo the shrouds, and then lower the mast.

You could always rig a line with a slipnot that you could undo from the mast base, so you wouldnt have to leave the mast unattended, or you could get a stranger to pull the pins on the shrouds. Might be a good way to meet girls, "Excuse me, but could you pull on my pin? I mean...no wait come back...."

You can tell the difference if there is a way to smell the inside of the hull through a porthole of even drain hole. If you have either (polyester or epoxy) sitting around you can smell a can of it and compare it to the boat. Each has a very distinct smell that is pretty close to their smell when wet. If you cannot tell the difference find someone who has worked with both. I think that Vinylester is a bit hard to tell from Polyester.

[color:"blue"]Stepping the mast solo[/color] on an A Cat is a snap. At my club unless it is the first time a mast is going up most of the sailors put them up solo anyway. Even if there is someone right there to help. Put the boat on Catwheels about 1/2 the way from the front crossbar to the tip of the bow. This way the boat is sitting on an angle back. Slack the forstays a bit (maybe 2 to 3 inches) but have them attached to the bows. Attach the hinged part from the base of mast to the front crossbar. Stand about the middle of the mast and lift. Walk hand over hand lifting the mast until it settles back on the forstays. Make sure that the boat is pointing in the wind. The mast will stand there by itself with the two forstays as supports. Then go to the shrouds and connect those. When you are done you will have to tighted up the forstays again.

The people at my club that step this way are Pete Melvin, Pease and Jay Glaser, Howie Hamlin and Jeremy Laundergan.

Later,
Dan

Dan/Bill

OK thanks (yes, front hinge). I've been preparing for the drop right by the sound of it, but have not had the confidence enough to stand in front of the mast and walk back with it myself to lower it; still in F18 'everythings-heavy' mode perhaps! I'll give it a try next time with somebody a bit further back just in case

PS: hulls are late 2005 => kevlar/foam/carbon/vinylester.

Dan;

Please pardon my ignorance, but can you stand on the tramp when the boat is on the trailer or the beach wheels?

On my 16 and 17, I stepped the mast while it was still on the traier, no support for the hulls other that the rollers.

Doug,
Did you price an XJ? The last price I remember was for a Bimare Italian made boat for $13,500 euros.

Any idea what a Vectorworks XJ costs?

When you get an A2, do you get a choice of sails? How about mast?

Pete, have you priced out the Vectorworks XJ? Whose mast or sails do they come with?

It would be interesting to compare/contrast two similar boats from two companies in the US.

Bill:

Vectorworks quoted me $17k f.o.b. their factory, with no sail option. Bimare sail I believe, no idea who the sailmaker is.

They're supposed to getting a couple of '05s, that will be reworked and offered at $16k. I'm more interested in these boats. I'm figuring $1k will go a long way for a new sail in a year.

Still waiting to hear back on that.