Wouter:

How 'bout it? Can you explain it in a nut shell?

Boats are boats, the important thing is to find the boat that will keep you active. List the top 8 or 10 characteristics that you are looking for in a boat, find a boat that has most of those qualities and go for it.

An "A' cat will fit better for some, F16 for others, F18 for others, I20 for others, F-35 for others, etc....... See John Alani's post in the F18 vs F16 topic.

I'm probably going with the A, but for the money involved I just want to get it right. The fly in the ointment is that I saw a clip of an A cat with a spin. Looked like a lot of fun! So, if spinnaker is the name of the game and single handing is important why not the 16? See my dilemma?

With the exception of maybe Marstrom, the majority of A cat manufacturers will not support you if you add a spinnaker to the boat (warrantee, etc.)

A major concern to me.

Pete:

Christopher Sundberg christopher.sundberg@gmail.com and I have had a discussion with Pete Melvin and Ben Hall about putting a spin on a A2 with a Marstrom M18 snail. Contact him and get in the mix.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com

And if you intend to race the A cat with other A cats, well, they don't use spinnakers for triangle racing...yet!

For me much of the fun start when you can go out on trapeeze. Which class will get my 97kgs out there first?

No way I can let go of spinnaker sailing, but I could live without it for class regattas and bring it out for recreational sailing.

Timbo:

That is why I have told Christopher if I put a spin setup on A2 i will not drill holes in boat like Haken did on his Marstrom. Has to be a system that is removable.

Pete:

There are a number of used boats out there. There is 1998 Watercat on the beachcats for $8900 in CA.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com

For me the economics are wrong on a '98. Time is money, a drive to California is out of the question for me.

Different horses, different courses.



A nut shell is nor very big so what else can I add.

Lets me give this a shot.

A-cat : An "all-or-nothing" horse for exclusively singlehanded minded sailors with a noticeably desire to own highly refined catamaran technology and who are content to accept its sensitiveness to trim which is a direct result of being highly developped.

F16 : A fast baseline horse that does nearly everything surprisingly well without being exceptional in any one particular aspect. It is only exceptional in its versatility. In many respects it is halveway between the F18 designs and the A-cat, trying to combine the best of both worlds.

End of nut shell


Some additional comments :

In the way of performance you will find that the A-cats, F18's and F16's are really close together around a race course. Sure enough the A-cat dominates upwind but will loose equally as much on the downwinds. The really light winds favour the A-cat, while the medium and strong winds favour the F18's and F16's. Pretty much as soon as there is enough wind to properly fill the spinnaker the spi boats will move to the front. This is in about 5 to 6 knots and above.

The A-cats have a very good international class with international events. In the way of local events I'm not too impressed. F16 is a young class which is still building herself up. We are small in local fleets and international events by any standard. Having said this, the F16's do seem to be more at home in open class events then the A-cats. You will see F16's do distance (fun) races but not many A-cats.

The F16's require less care then the A-cats although they are no tanks like the Hobie 16 or Hobie 18.

A-cat = 75 kg overall weight
F16 = 107 kg overall weight
Next singlehander = about 135 kg's (I-17 or FX-one) overall weight
F18 = 180 kg overall weight

When singlehanding you really feel the difference of 75 or 107 kg compared to 135 kg and over.



Personally I think F16's are great fun because of their versatility. For me the A-cat is boring; I'm sorry to say that but that is exactly how I feel. It does a few things very well but is unsuited to any use outside of that framework.

I get a real kick out of sailing with a spinnaker, both singlehanding as doublehanding. I love the fact that I can go out sailing my F16 as an A-cat look-a-like in the evenings (just put the mainsail up and go) and then convert it into a full blood doublehanded racer for the weekends (events, club races) by hoisting the jib and spi as well. Note that an F16 in A-cat-setup (only mainsail) will feel much like a pure A-cat; especially the newer F16's like the Blade F16. So for this reason I personally don't feel that I'm missing much.

I really do love the fact that I can switch from doublehanded sailing to singlehanded sailing within 5 minutes (hoisting or lowering the jib and when desired reraking the mast); even at events when a crew either shows up or cancels unexpectly. I can take anybody along that I want to by just going as a selftacking sloop rig without rigging the spinnaker. Total novice as crew ? No problem, the selftacker takes care of that part. Experienced crew ? Time to do some spinnaker action !

I also really appreciate the fact that both setups, solo and doublehanded are equally competitive against the F18's and A's. I love the fact that the F16's share several important design principles with the A-cats while staying relatively inexpensive. I also love the fact that the F16's are so comparable to the F18's in the performance and feel/appearence; making all my open class and club racing alot more enjoyable. In addition it allows me to do distance races and fun races.

Sure; when rigged the same as an A-cat (only a mainsail) the F16 is close to an A-cat with the A-cat having a definite edge both in pointing and speed. But the F16 is still second best in the setup when including all other designs for singlehanded sailors. Now put a spinnaker on the F16 and things start to change, the A's will now be working hard to stay in front and you have just extended your enjoyment of the F16 boat. Now add the possibility of adding crew and jib and go head to head with F18's or do distance races and you have just passed into a realm where the A-cat simply can not follow. Sure a nacra I-20 will eat the F16 up in a distance race, but the I-20 in its turn can't follow the F16 into the singlehander realm.

Like the way I started; the F16 is not an exceptional design in any particular aspect but it is surprisingly good in nearly all aspects making it an extremely versatile design that will allow you to enjoy cat sailing at a high level in any given setup.

But Pete, the best comment (advice) I can give you is to just get a test ride on one of VectorWorks Marine Blade F16's. Probably Chuck Harnden is close to you now; otherwise Matt from Vectorwork has been willing in the past to do a test ride. Just grasp that chance and see for yourself what the F16 can do. Don't take my word for it.

Mind you with the 2007 Alter Cup boats being Blade F16's you may just get a good deal on one of you are willing to wait a year.

Here is some extra info on an earlier test ride if you are interested.

Blade F16 test sail report


I hope this helps

Wouter

Very helpful, thank you.

Wouter, you must have big nuts.

Sometimes to do justice one needs to go beyond the lines set.

A-cats are an easy sell, just name the things they excell in.

F16's however, as direct result of the way they came about, need some background info.

Wouter

Wouter-
How much skill does one need to make a 16? Do you have a story on the web somewhere with pics of yours when you made it?

Hear, Hear!

I was joking my longwinded friend. I would have been shocked if you had left if at "different horse, different course."

I happen to agree with most of what you said. The only exception is that you refer to the A as "boring." I agree that singlehanding with a spin is the way to go, but I'm probably going to add a spin to my A for free sailing. This is not going to be boring. I single hand my HT now with the spin, and that isnt boring, so I get what you are talking about.

What the A has to offer is really a one design fleet racing boat. Most of the A racing - at least up here (RI,CT, NJ) is done in a one design setting. Everyone has the same uni rigged sail and they all go downwind the same way. And its very simple, clean boat, one sail, quick to rig.

When you get above 8-10knots the A goes into "wild mode" hull up, gybing downwind, different than flying a spin downwind, but still very interesting. Different, but not boring. But you dont have to rig a spin, or get crew, or deal with another sail.

Doug and Pete,
You can absolutely add a spin to your a cat without drilling holes in the bows. I'm thinking about an attachment that fits over the forestay eyes. Add a smaller snail snuffer and you got a nice little package. I started work on a Marstrom knockoff snail snuffer this weekend. We'll see how it comes out.

I am planning on adding a spin to my A, but I might not, "wild mode" might be enough, or I might get the urge to fly the spin when I'm not racing. Who knows.

If I was going to take friends or family with me, I wouldnt take the A cat. I wouldnt take the A on a distance race. But, hey I'm lucky I got an HT, a friend with an i20, an A cat and enough foam and carbon to build a moth.

I dont think we should limit ourselves to one boat. But if I did the F16 would be one of my choices. I would want to see more of them in the US and more one design fleet racing, but that might come some day.

Bill

Yes, ..... and No at the same time !

Have you ever sailed with a spinnaker on a beach catamaran Pete ?

Find a sailor who knows what he is doing with a cat spinnaker and get a test ride. Then you'll know.

I took a few sailors without any spi experience along, mind you I got lucky with the conditions a few times. About 10-12 knots of wind with flat water. I've could have sold them my spinnaker right then and there, every time. In my personal opinion it is definitely THE game in town.

At my club and even at the bigger events overhere you can see a high convergence towards spinnaker boats. In my club races 85 % of the 10 - 20 boats that regulary compete are fitted with a spinnaker. In bigger national events the ratio is often just as high. The F18's and F20's themselfs make up 2/3rd of any big open class event by now. Then start adding the other spinnaker equipped boats like the Tornado's and you are quickly getting up to 85 %.

Like many others who have expressed the same sentiments, I'm not trading in my spinnaker for anything.

Wouter

There was a spread in Catamaran Sailor about how to build your own Blade, and you can buy the plans from the designer. But if you are a subscriber, I'm sure you know all that. After reading the instructions, I think even I would be able to build a boat -- doesn't sound much more difficult than making a dress.

Mary,
Which issue? (I have only gotten 2- I'm a newbie )
I am fairly certain I can't make a dress...