This would certainly but a damper on the love fest that is F16, but it would also kill the entire F18 fleets and I20 Fleets. That adds up to a ton of boats out of service/not competitve. Do you think PC and H would let that happen? Probably not. It is too easy to build heavy boats.

Duck:

Things didn't change much while I was away!

Bill:

How many fingers is considered nice?

> Protocol dictates that I have the
> crew go into distraction mode with
> the A sailor

I was talking to a couple of Dart 18 sailors (I think) a few years ago and they told me one of their tricks was: when behind another boat on a really light wind day, throw a clevis pin or something up into their sail, then enjoy the fun and sail past them while they are worrying about whether or not their mast is about to fall down...

Colin; That's Not nice! In the old Hobie days, a lot of guys would "clink" the dog bones together. It's impossible to ignore that sound!

1 finger means "I think you are #1" (I get this a lot)

2 fingers mean "peace, groovy and I smoked too much pot in my life"

3 fingers means "I'm a redneck and I live in Texas"

4 fingers means "Ive lost my thumb in a horrible accident and its really nice to see you."

Its also getting easier to build light boats as you are proving with the F16. And people want lighter boats.

Humm, there seem to be a few really sour people around since the A-cat discussion has dwindled somewhat in favour of the F16 thread. "Wouter Cool-aid", "boat for midgets", "you can't see the servo's", "F16 love fest", "watch out for the ultimate 20 footer", etc, etc.

The level of fear or resent seems to be enormous; F16 must be doing something right !

Wouter

Wouter:

My body weight, mentioned in another thread, was the biggest reason I didn't get an A cat this time around. But, I personally love the concept and execution of the A cat. I'm gonna have one some day!

Someone once said of fly fishing, "It isn't the most efficient way to catch fish, but it is the most elegant." That's the way I feel about the A cat.

-1- Don't try to point with the A's. F16's like to be footed off and achieve high vmg by boatspeed rather then pointing.

-2- On the start line luff them up. The new A-cats with their flat keel lines and narrow daggerboards tend to have a high rate of drifting downwind. The F16's suffer less from this. So the A-cat has to luff but can't, when he fails to stay clear then protest them out of the race. Ignore the frantic shouting of the A-cats sailor; if he (or his boat) can't handle the heat on the start line then he should start on the second row.

-3- When passing an A-cat do it through its lee, through its windshadow. For one thing they don't have much windshadow at all and they often very unwilling to bear away and defend their position. A-catters are pointing addicts. Best manouvre is to threaten to pass them on the luff side, they think "What, passing ME on the luff ? I'll show him some pointing" then when they luff even more bear off rapidly and blast through their lee and luff up again giving them bad air. Don't forget to keep footing and go for speed. A-cat sailors often won't follow and return to his first instict which is pointing giving you clean air again.

-4- Sail deep and fast downwind under spinnaker. Heat up till you lift your windward hull and then mildly steer down and keep the hull flying while making a deep pointing angle. Ignore the A-cats totally on this course UNLESS you can cover them with your spinnaker windshadow briefly. As a result they will fall of the wildthing groove and have to start all over again. This is a major setback; they have to point up high again and gain speed before they can get into the groove again.

-5- Let the A-cats go on the first upwind leg and try really hard to overtake them on the first downwing leg. If you round C-mark first then they have to work through your dirty air and overtake you. Don't point above your optimal VMG angle, which is lower then the A's. If they are close enough then they will eventually overtake you no matter how high you try to point. The trick is NOT to defend your position; it is to make them loose as much speed as you can by giving them dirty air. The A-cats need to win the race on the upwind legs; if you can have them sail a less then perfect upwind leg then you hit them where it hurts most. By the next downwind leg you will pass them sooner and extend your lead.

-6- Learn to ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS pull a spinnaker on the downwind legs. Especially learn to do so in big wind. You won't believe it but this is major winner. The spinnaker stabilizes the F16 when overtaking ways in a huge way. The A-cats will try to ride the waves but will have to be careful not to trip on them. Their large squaretop heads can easily push them over when they drive into the next wave to hard. In contrast the F16 under spinnaker can be driven quite hard through the waves. Hull length has nothing to do with it, it is all due to the F16 driving deeper courses and the way the spi affects the saildrive and aerodynamics of the rig. In big wind you can sail really deep under spi when singlehanding and really fast when double handing, both make really good VMG.

-7- Protest any proposal to have a single lap race with an upwind finish. Sometimes the A-cat sailors really campaign for a triangular course in addition to this. Their reasoning is simple; they want to make the time spend on upwind legs as big as possible while not giving any spi legs away to the Formula boats. You want plain windward-leeward courses, with a downwind finish or a finish that is on a (broad) reach from the C-mark. You also want more then 1 lap, but nor more then 3 laps.

-8- If you are confronted with a triangle course then don't sail straight for the B-mark as the A's will be doing. Find a course that will make you go fastest and that is not too far above the rumbline. Then well before you get to the mark you'll arive at a point where you can bear down significantly and pull a spinnaker while later still clearing the B-mark. Do that. You'll be doing alot of speed under spinnaker and pulling a huge windshadow. Everybody below you will get dirty air and passing you will be as good as impossible. In addition to this you'll cover the A-mark to B-mark distance quicker then you would by sailing a straight line to the B-mark and only pull a spi afterwards. It will take a little training to get the course right but after that this approach is a winner. Especially when doublehanding.

-9- Under spinnaker then keep your individual legs shorts, stay in the middle of the course and gybe more then once. It is extremely easy to overstand the bottom mark under spinnaker'. Don't try to make the leg from A-mark to C-mark with only 1 gybe. Chances are you will overstand the mark and even have to douce the spi before you reach the C-mark. This is all very bad. Non-spi baots like the A-cat will typically go to outside of the course more. Make it their risk, by dominating the middle with your windshadow and speed.

-10- When finishing on a course with a (Broad) reach after the C-mark then try to keep you spi up all the way to the finish, this is one of the most spectacular legs on a spinnaker boat. For this reason it requires some skill in spinnaker sailing when the wind is above 14 knots but it can be done very well below 14 knots and after some training. You won't loose any time doucing the spi sail and when done right you'll blast across the finishline. Áim to just clear to leeward finish bouy. When you are too low then in the final meters let the spi flap and head up to finish on a beam reach. This is an emergency trick but will work quite well when you have too. You correct quite some distance to the line that way if you were to low to clear the bouy.

-11- When doublehanding, work that spi and go for speed. When singlehanding find a good spi setting and steer to keep it well filled and your luff hull just above water. Go for single trapeze only when doublehanding unless you are looking at 20 + winds and you really have to stay high to clear a mark or whatever. When singlehanding then going to the trapeze under spinnaker is a huge speed boost, but in a good breeze this will be the stuff for more experienced singlehanded spi sailors. No problemo though, as pinning yourself on the luff hull and sailing deep will work quite well. Build your experience up by sitting in even in 20 knots and when more comfortable with the spi in all conditions then move to the trapeze.

-12- When you overstand the mark then don't try to head up beyond the optimal spi course to make the gate. Gybe towards to mark and keep going for optimal downwind VMG, as long as you are going in the general direction of the gate (bottom mark) then you'll be alright. Then when the mark is just below a beam reach, douce the spi and cover the final distance by reaching at full speed. You'll cover more distance but you'll be faster then pointing high under the spinnaker. It is better to end up perfectly at the bottom makr under spi but the hit is not too big if you correct your earlier overstanding mistake this way. Basically this also means that you can opt to go wide at the bottom mark when it is crowded, this is especially handy when singlehanding.

-13- Practice on the spinnaker hoists and douces, you can win many boatlengths with this.

Next post :

the answer too

The Duck got busted.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0224061monroe1.html

I've heard that story in one form or another many times, and my usual response is to refer the teller to rules 2 (Fair Sailing) and 69 (Gross Misconduct).

Regards,
Eric

Here is the Duck I was referring to. Please don't let his docile posture fool you; he is a hull flyer to be feared!

Flatlander,

I used to own a Prindle 16 catamaran for many years, it was my first boat. I sailed it alot on the North Sea here in Europe which is typically between 6 and 12 mtrs deep with strong tidal currents and some good sized chop is worked up when the tide is against the wind. It was often a big challenge keeping the Prindle 16 calm and ride the waves well; there were many times that we cursed the waves and they would very often bring the boat to almost a full stop. I know the feeling of hobbiehorsing very well. I don't know how this compares to your conditions but I can tell you that my switch to the F16 (I had other boats in between) was a huge step up. Riding the waves well is still a skill that is needed by the modern hull shapes just cut through the water so much better and they loose so much less speed while doing so. In this way there is not much difference between any modern boat you compare to the oldies like the Prindle 16 and Hobie 16. F18, A-cat, F16, I-20 you name it they sail just significantly better.




In my opinion : yes.

The newer hull designs are noticeably better in such conditions.

Wouter

How about 19', 280 lbs, with an optimal crew weight of 340lbs?

Ultimate 20/19/18 footers killing off the F18 and or F16 classes ?

I seem to remember that we saw the M20 (faster and 120 kg), CFR20 (faster and about 120 kg as well), Taipan 5.7 (faster and 135 kg), F18HT (faster in some conditions and 130 kg), Ventilo 20 (faster and 150 kg), 20HT (still in prototype stages), M18 (faster and 80 kg), 18 sq.mtr. (faster and 80 kg), eagle 20 carbon (faster and 120 kg) and probable one or two more.

None of these design were able to compete in any meaningful way and none show any current potential to do so in the future.

Seriously, we've seen many tries and all failed.

Neither the F18 class or F16 class is losing any sleep over it. People think that designing the ultimate lightweight 20 footer and establishing it as a popular class is something else then extremely challenging. Remember that even Marstrom had to raise the minimum weight of the M20 from 108 kg to 120 kg because of breakages.

The only two new classes to have emerged in the last 10 years and show GLOBAL growth (meaning beyond the "prototype + some locally sold") stages are the spitfire and the F16 class (almost one and the same class). Both I-17 and FX-one have a small and very localized fleets in respectively US Great lake states and Northern Europe but nothing outside of it. Before this decade we saw the F18 class and F20 classes established in the early 90's. All other classes are before that time and only the H16, tornado and A-cat seem to be surviving after the introduction of the F18/F20 classes.

Of course in these 15 years many more new classes were formed and promoted but none of them make it to global growth. This is how difficult it is to make a new design and class a succes.

And the established classes know this, that is why none are worrying about any "ultimate" this or that.

Wouter

Most likely due to the $$$$$..... After all it is hard to justify the $$$$$$ for one of these for most people...... After all, for most it is only a hobby and many have the financial pressures of a mortgage, marriage and kids

Yes, I believe for most of us it is more about money than "Ultimate Performance". And as we saw with the Inter 20 class here in the States, too many boy-girl crews think a 20 footer is just "too much boat", thus they are moving to the f18, even though it is rated slower than the 20, and just as heavy, and nearly as expensive, actually more expensive really, if you are comparing a new F18 ($15,000) to a used I20 ($10,000).

Here's how we do it in America: http://www.break.com/index/snlnarnia.html

Like he says, "It's all about the Hamiltons!" (Hamilton's picture is on our $10. bill)

You are probably correct, but what ever the real reasons is (are) there is no serious danger that such a design will start a revolution in the beach cat sailing scene or affect the growths of the current formula classes.

Wouter

I think when ever some new person enters an activity, there are two basic questions they ask: Can I do this? (do I have the strength and ability) and Can I afford this?

That is why the H16 class thrives. More people can afford it and do it.

The further you move away from the H16 class, up the pyramid of cost and complexity, the fewer sailors are able to both afford it and "do" it. When you get to the top of the pyramid, (the Tornado class for example) there are very few sailors who have both the money and ability to be sucessful racing it. The rapid growth of the F18 is due to it being somewhere in the middle, between the H16 and Tornado. And more numbers attract more sailors to the class. To a man, each one of the Florida Inter 20 sailors who are now racing F18's say the same thing: "I like the Inter 20 better as a boat but the F18 has more boats at the regattas." They would rather sail in a larger fleet than on a faster boat. Therefore I do not see any hope for an "Ultimate 20 footer" (costing what, $20-30K?) making any signifigant dent in the F18 market. I won't have an F18 for one reason, I sail alone alot more than with crew.

I still love the spinnaker and the A cats are just too much money for me. Therefore, in my case, the F16 makes perfect sense, but that's just me. Thank God we are not all the same! I don't think I could stand bumping into -me- all day!

Of course a new F18 is going to cost more than a used F20. It is a supply demand thing - There is no meaningful class and that will kill any boat's resale value. How do they compare new vs new???

Btw - I would love to go F20 racing but the costs are prohibitive at the moment.

Tiger Mike