I am on the F18 mailing list and a proposal to reduce the minimum weight of the F18 was turned down.

IMO, there are several reasons.

The current fleet would be obsolete, and this would alienate the current owners.

The current manufacturers, and there are lots of them, are not the ones in support of this change.

The F16 and F18HT formulas are out there today, but their support from manufacturers is significantly less than F18. Many of the manufacturers who support F18HT and/or F16 are also developing or introducing F18 models. The market and the support of the manufacturers indicate that the F18 rules should not change too significantly. Most of the accepted rule changes are to clarify existing rules or to grandfather, although temporarily, some features that were already on existing boats but in violatation of the rules.

Lastly, the rules have created very equal sailing that seems to put the best sailor on the podium, not the best boat.

The intent of the rules is to answer the question of this thread, "What is the BEST F18?????" The one with the best team on it.

So if most of the boats depend on the crew anyway, why not go with the least expensive- most support available. So which one is least expensive?

Folks,

Let's run some numbers (my estimates):

Change mast to carbon - ~25-30 lb weight reduction
Lighter daggerboards - ~10-15 lbs total
Lighter rudders - ~5 lbs total
Carbon tillers and crossbars, u-joint connections - ~7-12 lbs
Carbon beams - ~15-20 lbs
Take all the "NASCAR" stickers off the sails - ~10 lbs!
Spinnaker launch system equivalent to T-cat - ~5 lbs

OK, so we get 75 - 100 lbs.You do this for a total cost of around $6K, keep your hulls, and possibly re-cut the luff curve of your mainsail. You could also do this in a planned phase out from the old to the new over 5 years to ease the costs (like pulling a tooth but it gets better).

If you solely race F-18 around the buoy's, you'd probably love these changes. If you race long distance through surf breaks, you may oppose them.

The Snipe class did it in the 60's and the change improved the class (they went from a 425 lb 16' dinghy to a 350 lb 16' dinghy). Why can't F-18 make this evolution?

A 300-325 lb F-18 is a lot better than a 400 lb F-18. I just could not spend that amount of money on a boat that heavy. IMO, F-18 (by the nature of its purpose to encourage some development) will suffer if it does not move towards lighter weight with current available technology and components. I agree with a previous poster that participation you saw in the Nacra classes, P-19, and H-20 in the early to late 90's is not currently being matched by F-18 in the US. What about Europe?

The designs (Tiger, Capricorn, Infusion) are beautiful. The construction and components technology is dated compared to what BIM, AHPC, and others are doing with A-cats and F-16.

Bob Hodges
A2 USA 230

But no one bought 18HTs

Consolidation of performance oriented sailors

If we are consolidating racers into one or two double handed performance classes... How big will the F18 class grow?

2005 Total Nationals/worlds US and Canada
Hobie 20’s 160 total and 32 national
Tigers 96 total and 43 national
Nacra 20’s ~125 total and 15 national
Nacra F18’s ~50 total and 20 national
Tornado ~25 total and 8 national

Totals 431 total and 118 national

~ = my wild butt guess as to the number of boats that competed in one race

Hobie numbers seem to include all class members... not neccarily those that competed in one race (76 H20's were scored with total points)


My point is simply that the number of racers who WANT to compete as a two man team is really small and so F18 class growth may start to slow down.

IF.... everyone in North America agreed to sail F18's... (and pigs flew) the total fleet at the nationals would be around 120 boats!

Just a reality check! You still have to solve the problem that these racers are really spread out in the country and getting a decent turnout of 10 boats at a regatta is very very tough.

For a reality check!
I think Wouter reported that he would have about 15 or so level rated spin cats at JUST HIS CLUB.!

At least in the US....was this not b/c the big manufactureres did not get behind th 18HTs?

Basically, PC and H set the trend in the US for beachcats. I bet F16 would not see as much growth were it not for Vectorworks building the Blade. What if PC offered the 5.0 with F16 rigs. That would be interesting.

The only way the F18 will use SlimFast is if PC and H see economic incentive. At this point there is not economic incentive to make a change to the rules. It would take half the F18 fleet dumping their boats and go somewhere else (not going to happen) for any changes. They cannot afford to alienate their current sailors.

The only other current day problem F18 has is class division. What if H forbids PC in their H regattas and PC forbids any changes to their platform (sail maker, hardware, etc.) and mutually creates a divide in the F18 fleet? F18s are here to stay (as is) until PC and H decide differently.

Well, not no one but the class failed to sustain itself.

I think you point to a critical factor in class success... the class sociology or esprit de corp ... Stuart Walker pointed to this and noted the essential contributions of class leaders AND the culture that makes people feel they belong to a group that is up and about something in the world. Some of the Hobie class's are able to do this extremely well. The 16's in particular have a core group that go racing and go to national events. The A class seems to be generating a similar culture. You sort of worry about the F18's because they can and have fractured along sectarian lines... which undercuts the esprit de core and camraderie that you need to sustain a group.

Its kind of funny... People go head over heels about A cats but they just seem to like the F18's ... what they care about is the competition.

Now... if they dropped a hundred pounds... would the F18 generate passion????

The skill level of an TOP full time pro Olympian is in a different league to a great amature or semi pro sailor..... Now only if ISAF and IOC made it a requirement for Olympic athletes to work a 9 to 5 x 7 day week off the water job....

If the intire fleet were either amatures or all Olympic pros..... Then we will have a better indication of what is the dominant class....

If you slide a first grade football team into your local comp....... who do you think will win.

P.s. Now M&M's....... mmmmmmmmm...... got to be the peanut M&M's

Mike.... Also let us know when the next decent regatta is on in Vic. Particularly one that will be well represented by F-18s (even Frankston Regatta)..... My family lives down there and would love to head down with the boat.

I have come out of Tornadoes into the F-18 class and whilst the T is a lot quicker on yardstick..... The sensation of speed between the 2 boats and F-16 are not that great.... What is noticeable is that in the fresh stuff ie average 20 knots plus..... You cannot push the F-18 downwind as much as the T...... The extra 2 foot on the bow makes a world of difference......

What many sailors find important is the thrill of close big fleet sailing. Take a look at the H16.... The reason why it is so succesfull is because it is cheap....... within reach of many people and therefor races in large numbers.... So if you want to sail 2 up.... Why not choose an F-18 over an F-16..... The F-18 is a little quicker, the sensation of speed is to close to notice, and the increased waterline benifits the F-18s in the fresh stuff. The F-18 also has a very large established and still fast growing fleet.......

Don't get me wrong, I quiet like the F-16, however the F-18s have the fleet numbers as well as the performance gains that comes with a longer waterline........ So I chose an F-18... If I wanted to race small fleets, I will return to the Tornado class. However if you have larger numbers of F-16s in your area......... Then why get an F-18......

Why not change??? Firstly the class is currently growing faster than any class in the world. Why risk everything they have built over the last 5-7 years???

Tiger Mike

Sorry - prefer the chocolate ones myself. As for F18 stuff the last decent regatta for the season was a couple of weeks ago won by yours truely at Mornington for the Volvo boats. We have a F18 regatta every weekend at Frankston with 14 boats fronting up most weekends.

Tiger Mike

P.S. Is the Wangi June regatta still a big F18 event?? With a bit of arm twisting I might be pursuaded to head north again mid year

I'd expect it would be.....

This is an interesting thread, and I've enjoyed reading the different perspectives here. I have a couple of thoughts to offer, though they aren't any more valid than anything else presented here so far.

Best boat? My hands-on experience is limited to two of them - Hobie Tiger and Nacra F-18. I generally agree with the folks who said, in one way or another, that it really depends on who's sailing it. I strongly believe that the performance of the two platforms that I've crewed on is remarkably similar overall. I have been on these two boats for almost five years now - crewed on my first Tiger at the 2001 Area D Eliminations.

I have built both boats out-of-the-box several times. Like anyone, I have developed a preference for how to rig the front of the boat, which requires a few changes from the stock set-up. The only top-shelf team I know that sails a straight stock boat from either camp is Greg and Jacques (Tiger). I have a very slight preference for building the Nacra over the Tiger due to a very few bits and pieces - I think both manufacturers could stand to put better lines on the boats, but that's a very minor gripe. I've noticed that Hobie has made some improvements recently.

My opinion on results is that the Tiger has had much more consistent attendance and representation in the US - for whatever reason, the best Nacra teams don't have the stick-to-it attitude that makes for long-term good results in Formula 18 fleets. Internationally, I think that the Hobie factories do a better job than Nacra supporting a select few teams in a way that is reflected in the results. Nacra's support has not been as consistent and long-term oriented. We should all agree that a team's preparation and time on the boat factor into positive results.

As far as growth in the class? It is growing - I'm not sure that trying to determine if it is growing with new sailors or through the losses from other fleets is relevant other than for academic discussion. From my small-pond view, I can say that I am buying an F-18, and that one of my good friends who used to race a Nacra 6.0 (but has been inactive lately) is also buying one. Does that "scavenge" from the 6.0 fleet? This purchase pulls me out of the crew pool (I hope to keep my Union card ) but the skippers I've crewed for in the class will continue to race, I'm sure. This adds two more boats to the fleet without really taking anything away from another class from a "local" sort of perspective. Nationally, it is telling that Formula 18 boats have been selected for the Alter Cup three times since 2002, though we're not getting the F-18 we'd hoped for next month.

Quality of events? I have said on this forum before that the F-18 Nationals in Virginia last August was the best event I've been to in years. Why? It wasn't the conditions, or the food or give-aways, or anything like that. It was the people and the attendance - the event put two groups of sailors together that I normally don't get to spend time with at a single event - and they were from all over. It was also the nature of formula racing - there were plenty of both of the US boats present of various ages, but it was still a matter of who got across the finish line first. I don't have anything against Portsmouth racing at all, but straight-up is more fun when you can manage it. I feel the results from the event are not reflective of the boats' performance at all - if you were choosing based on that regatta's trophies alone, you'd not be getting a full picture. Time on the boat, preparation, teamwork, the commitment to stick it out to the end, and to a smaller degree factory support, all played much bigger roles than the boats themselves. I don't want to overstate the factory support comment - if Greg and Jacques worked somewhere other than Hobie, I just don't know if they would get to sail as much. What a dream job, even if they aren't making what they could in other pursuits.

Overall, the debate over cause and effect can continue ad infinitum, but at last call for alcohol, the class is still growing in the US, the boats have thus far been very equal in overall performance, and the team makes the difference. I've enjoyed being a member, and I'm looking to being an owner in this class.

ps - my favorite M&M? Morrelli and Melvin

Whilst not increasing the number of new sailors, I believe a class of fast, fun and reliable boats with good class racing encourages sailors to transition from cruising to recreational racing, and to buy and use new boats. We've got far too many unused boats lying around, mute testament that too many people have lost interest.

F18 has started catching on here too, with Tigers leading in numbers. We're hoping to switch the N6.0 for a Tiger soon

Hi John,
Notice.. the factors that mattered most to you were social factors. It was not about how nice the boat sailed... (I am not saying the F18's sail poorly)

My point is that for many sailors (myself included), How nice the boat sails... IS the paramount factor because we are not JUST racing it... So,light weight, one or two up versatility and how well the boat communicates to you trump the strong class aspects. (IMO the Tornado is the best sailing two man boat that I know of).

Wouter noted the number of lightweight and faster boats that are being made and sailed.... I would turn around the negative view (they have not made a succesful class) and note... Hey... there are lots of people who want high performance machines that speak to them.

The single handed sailors are a good case in point where the A class boats offer light weight, high performance and a boat that people just go nuts over and are now building the social class to go along with the boat.

Apparantly, F18 sailors were concerned about weight enough to consider a weight reduction program along the lines that Bob H suggested. One day they may revist the issue again. I argue that such a boat would offer the best of both worlds (performance and social) to sailors

Hey Mark -

Valid points, but staying on topic regarding selection of an F-18, my point is that boats from two different manufacturers of various ages and iterations are generally equal in my view. This "level playing field" makes the question "which F-18 is the best" more about your skill, commitment, and teamwork than the branding.

We can debate what attracts individual sailors to a specific class elsewhere. Join me at the bar?

Bar... that I will!! (But that pracitce won't get me down to F18 weight)

Which F18.... I agree with you. I would bet money it correlates to time on the water for the teams... unlike Allen Iverson... (Practice... who needs practice...) practice and coaching are the major discriminators.

(Now practice and coaching are things I wish I had time and money for)

For what it's worth. I haven't seen any evidence that one hull design is measurably faster then the other. It seems very much like the A cat's where even the pre flyer hull shapes (eg Marstrom) are competitive at least at the USA national level... (good thing too cause that boat just won't die).

I am curious to see how the new alu Performance mast works and compares to the Capricorn wing mast versus the more traditional tear drop shapes of Hobie and Nacra F18's ... AND... with the formula concept... if you think that the mast/main sail shapes are faster... you can always upgrade.

Good luck with the Alter Cup... It looks like a hell of a fleet! I was delighted to see Matt Keenan and Ed Nolan could take Area C's slot in lieu of Bill Jeffers. Hey we have two horses to root for up here with the Jason's and Keenan/Nolan going.

Mark

Sorry, Mark - we now claim the Jasons as Floridians and Area D sailors.

Thread Hijack Complete.

John and Mark thanks for the info.

Matt

There is a perception with some sailors around here that the F18 is an expensive class to get into. I think (hope) that as the class matures a bit and boats get older, 2nd hand values will make the class more affordable for all.

It is a double edged sword, we need to have the depreciation slow enough so that the guys buying new boats without getting roasted in the 2nd hand market and at the same time having enough difference to build a thriving 2nd hard market.

One thing that most F18's have going for them is a relatively long racing life which is great for the class.

Tiger Mike