Had almost this same incidence happen with my wife as crew. (apologies to those who remember my recantation, but for the benefit of those who don't recall it.)

Race situation (no mast bob), very, very strong winds, before the start we were hit by a huge puff and my wife was unable to uncleat the jib. I bailed and she scooted back up the tramp to the rail (H16). I knew the boat was going turtle (shame on me for not telling her ahead of time). Despite my telling her to jump, she was determined to stay on board, to the point of turning herself around and finally letting go as the boat was starting to turtle from the heavy wind. Sliding face first down the tramp her hook caught the center tramp lacing and within seconds she was two feet under water, attached to the tramp. She was panicing, if she had a knife or cable cutter on her person I don't believe she would have been "cool" enough to use it. Thank God we had the circa 1980, quick release hook. Does any one remember what I'm talking about? Looks identical to the small (not spreader bar) type harness buckle, but had a short line tail to actuate a spring loaded release mechanism (the whole hook and backing plate slid out of the frame). This saved her life. Diving down under the water, against the bouyancy of the life vest was difficult enough, not leaving me much time to do anything other than pull that cord and yank her out from under the boat and to the surface.

Was there some suspected defect to these? Back into cat sailing/racing after several years off I notice they're not available any longer (at least not in the Hobie catalogue). I have some older style harnesses I'd like to outfit them with. Are they still available somewhere?

We believe in quick release.

How about just bring along a large diameter garden hoose instead of a high tech James Bond like air canister. With enough diameter you could survice indefinately. Just have a float on the other end.

This sounds like some good emergency rescue aid for catamaran instructors and dirty cheap as well. It is best if people remember to breath in through the mouth and out through the corners of the mouth/nose as well. Then even smaller diameter tubes can be used as well.

With respect of quick release harnesses, I think I know of a system that will work very well and be relatively easily to make as well. It will unhook to full hook assemble together with the bar itself. Rolf, you seem to be handy with making stuff yourself; shall we hook up and try to work this one out. I'm handy in lateral thinking and designing but homebuilding stuff isn't my forte !

Wouter

That is indeed true. Sometimes we want to keep our gear undamaged for too long. Something I learned from former marines/commando's (we seem to have quite a few of them in cat sailing overhere). Din't panic, Don't freeze-up; don't think about later, do immediately what you think will work. If it doesn't work then you still have some time to think up something else and do that. All gear can be replaced; it is just money, no big deal. That and to remember to always bring a proper knife with you.

In cases like this cutting the trampoline can do wonders can do wonders if somebody is trapped underneath. If the rescue-ee is hold down deeper then have one person do buddy breathing with that person while the others do the cutting and stuff.

Actually I'm quite happy I took that diving course once. Both made me feel even more relaxed under water (don't panic) and taught me some tricks on how to keep somebody alive. Often if you relax yourself untangling becomes alot easier. Thats another taught in diving school.

Wouter

When somebody panics and gets a death lock on your thus holding you down then dive deeper, its remarkable how many people will then immediately let go.

And again don't be shy; rough them up when you have to. Break a few fingers when necessary.

Wouter

Here's another option for jet ski hunters.

http://www.west.net/~lpm/hobie/archives/v1-i2/humor.shtml

Isn't the idea to get rid of the hook by quick release? The ball and socket eliminates the hook. The problem with anything quick release is that it works at the most inopportune times.Like double trapped going to A in the lead(could happen).

John: Having the knives and cable cutters on board are probably more for helping others in need more than yourself.
There is always another boat nearby during a race. Everyone should be prepared.

Having the hose on the chase boats is also an interesting idea.

Wouter: Hit me with what you got. It's too cold for epoxy to set in my garage (latest kayak on hold) and too much snow to launch the T. Sewing machine just sits there while I am waiting for some pre-cut sail-kits..

pbisesi: It's not just the hook that can get caught, it's amazing what you can manage to get stuck to while sailing. Everything from sheets to trampoline lazing can tangle you, so you can never eliminate the danger completely. But having a quick release harness removes one of the larger risks. If the system is good enough, it should not release when you dont want it to.

I think the hose idea is too complex. First you have to get it down to the one trapped while he/she is still concious. Then he/she needs to remember how to use it correctly (in trough the mouth, out trough trough the nose) and dont hyperventilate in and out trough the hose. 99% (wild guess) of cases where you are trapped can probably be solved with a knife or rescue hook. Having a sealed mast with enough volume to keep the boat from turtling is the very best insurance against ever getting into such a situation.

I was just getting ready to post some of these same recommendations. I'm responding to this simply to add some emphasis because I think in a panic situation the gut instinct is for people to try to swim under and free the person, when the first priority should be establishing the ability to breath. For somebody trapped under the tramp cutting the tramp can get that person breathing even if they are still caught in the rigging. It may also provide quicker access to the person to help free them.

Buddy breathing may also be an option, although this may be tough depending on how the person is trapped. Once again, cutting the tramp may give enough access to the person to do this effectively.

Both things require that people are calm enough or have thought about the situation enough to try those things and not automatically emphasize only freeing the person.

I have a dive knife on my vest in such a manner that either hand can get it and use it without the other hand. But many of the newer lines we use are tough to cut. And I try think through it to remember that it is there, as I can envision being panicked enough to forget it.

I like the tool link posted above, it looks like it could make quick work of the tramp with little worry of cutting somebody caught beneath.

The idea about the hose with a float on the end is excellent. Has anybody actually tried this?

I feel for the loss. Now having a child of my own makes these things seem more real and it strikes a cord that I probably wouldn't have felt before.

As for how to fix these things - a tough problem. Sailing and other activities are full of inherent risk. Finding ways to minimize those risks is always a noble pursuit - thinking through and being prepared is the best way, and correcting problems that will get you in trouble in the first place is best. But there's limits, lest we all end up sailing in plastic bubbles with life support.

As for the people who ended up legally responsible - I feel for them as well. Negligent under the law for sure as written, but this will be with them for the rest of their lives and I doubt there was any kind of criminal intent.

Rolf, I've sailed a little and am aware of what can tangle. The quick release systems that I know of release the hook not the entire harness. If you have a rash gaurd over the harness and life jacket that eliminates a lot of what can get caught. Whats left is the hook. Again the ball and socket eliminate that. I might be missing something (not the first time).

Rolf: Yes, but...I think most would agree, at least in the case of the H16, I don't care how well the mast is sealed, in strong winds (when things happen fast, including mistakes leading to capsize) that this boat is going turtle. I don't know what is is about the boat (maybe the raised tramp?) they just do.

Are you sure your mast is sealed? I had 4 different H16s over 10 years, got knocked down in some pretty nasty wind and never went turtle.

"I think most would agree..." (I knew it when I wrote it), and strong (around here) is B7 and B8.

This problem of turtling is a well know issue. Yet it hasn't been addressed by anyone in the primary phase of boat design, other than Bill Roberts. His Supercat and ARC catamarans are the only ones, that I am aware of, that build a large enough mast section to provide sufficient buoyancy to keep the boat from going turtle in all but the most extreme circumstances, this is not by accident …but by design.. Why hasn't anyone else followed suite. Yes you have the Hobie Bob, but that is nothing but an awkward band aid that hurts (or is perceived to hurt) performance. Why not adapt this simple solution to a potentially horrific problem. The increase in mast section size never seems to slow down Bill or Eric on the race course.

Why not a small gas powered life preserver type thing on the top of the mast that inflates on consistent contact with water? Or has some type of pull thing that you could run down the middle of the mast. Wouldn't be as big as a bob.
This could be easily replaced and relatively cheap.

Not to be too callus but [censored] happens. Sailing is an inherently risky sport. No level of safety gear is going to change that. There will always be injury and death in sports.
In my life I have been an avid sailor, ski racer, ice boater and cyclist. All these sports have killed people I knew personally. That is all part of the deal.

I am a firm believer in minimizing risks when reasonably possible. I don’t think we need to go to extremes though. When cycling or iceboating I wear a helmet. The best money can buy in terms of safety and comfort. I also know a helmet won’t save me in a bad crash.
While sailing I wear the ball and socket harness. I also wear a rash guard over everything to cut down on the likelihood of getting snagged on a buckle or anything in a capsize. I always wear a lifejacket. I don’t sail on boats I can’t comfortably right. I wear a dry suit in cold water.
On the other hand I don’t carry a knife. I am opposed to the idea. I think the chances of cutting yourself outweigh the usefulness. I don’t have a mast float and I do sail alone on a single hander. I accept the fact that some of my choices may kill me.

Personally, I think it is insane to have a rule that kids have to have supervision on the water until they are 16. 8 might be more reasonable. Do you have to follow your kids around in a powerboat when they go sailing? No wonder kids sit around and play Nintendo. If you want a whole generation of Mama’s boys this is the way to get it. I think requiring them to have lifejackets might be ok although even that is questionable.

Sail fast, Take chances
Eric Anderson A class US 28, DN 5193

Hasn't that been done? CO2 cartridge with pull ring?

Some guys would just swim out to the mast tip and put a spare jacket under it.

if they made something like that I would consider buying it. I have thought about carrying one of those seat cushions for that purpose as well. I have gone over many (well... enough) times and never gone turtle but I have been afraid of doing it.
I didn't even have a problem when I had to swim the thing to shore (don't worry Pete, this was all my stupidity- at the time- and the first time I had the boat out).

Hey, while we're at it- how do you make sure your mast is water-tight? If it has a leak up top but sealed on bottom then won't you just accumulate water and create a bigger problem?

Then we have something in common besides our initials.

". . .leak up top. . ." Yep.

BTW- about the making sure the mast is sealed- don't respond with "make sure it is sealed well with silicone" etc

"Why not a small gas powered life preserver type thing on the top of the mast that inflates on consistent contact with water? Or has some type of pull thing that you could run down the middle of the mast. Wouldn't be as big as a bob.
This could be easily replaced and relatively cheap."


That may be fine for the boats that are already in existence...but why can't the boat manufactures just do it right when designing them...what’s so hard about making the mast sufficiently buoyant in the fist place by increasing the section size? This is by far the simplest and easiest way to solve the problem? It doesn’t have to look like a giant football or tootsie pop on the top of the mast.