I have been looking around- mainly for fun (aka, bored, nothing to do) and it seems like someone could get a used tiger for a decent price and be competitive right off in the f18 fleet. There don't appear to be a lot of used nacra f18s around and it seems like there is pretty good company support for the tiger.

Ollie, I am committed to sail with Sarah on the 16 for a while. It took a long time to grow a 70lb crew,I'm taking advantage of it. The idea of getting a Tiger to leave with you in Florida for the winter sounds real good. I would need a crew for the Tiger, Diane is already pretty well booked for the season.
Are you working on the Olliegatta or Olliepalooza for next winter?

Where are the results for the Infusions who has raced in europe posted?

Not as competitive as a new F18. The fact that modified Tigers do well in European F18 fleets doesn't mean that (stock ?) second hand Tigers are "right off" competitive in F18 fleets. We all know how serious crews buy a Tiger only to strip it completely to give it full work over before even racing the first race ? With the newer tigers this workover is less then before because Hobie are producing the boats with better sails now, but still the Tiger gets a workover like any other production F18.

Wouter

I guess I should say they have the means to be competitive without dropping twice as much for a new boat. Just seems like the only used f18s, for the most part, are tigers. Only now am I seeing used nacra f18s, and only heard of the capricorn this month.

Alright, give us those results where "the Infusion is making a very strong showing in Europe against all comers." ?

In fact if anybody has anything in this direction please post it.

I'll give you all a hint. NO catamaran races have been held in (northern) Europe this year 2006 as this area is still in its off season (winter). Boats are still in winter storage. So who did they race and in which non-existant event ?

Wouter

John,




You didn't make up this statement, if anything you relayed something what was said to you by another person.





No, I'm just suprised that the infusion could compete against other F18's when it was busy sitting pretty at boat shows and when nearly the whole European F18 class still has their boats in winter storage as the European racing calender has yet to start (next month).

But apparently sources in the USA claim something about the European catamaran scene that is indeed surprising. I'm always in to learn something new; so please show us the pics and the race results.


Wouter

There are used F18's available on the market, specifically in the south US. I've got both a 2005 Nacra and a 2004 Tiger for sale.

Before you break out the flamethrowers, I have an ad in the Catsailor classifieds...

Strange things happen

At Performance Catamarans they have a long waiting list of US customers willing to buy an Infusion and ship all their production to Europe.

AT THE SAME TIME at AHPC they have a long waiting list of European customers willing to buy a Capricorn and they ship quite a big chunk of their yearly output (5 boats but apparently they can ship up to 7) to the US.

I can see no reason for this "strange" behaviour but money:

in Europe competitive (ready to race) F18s are marketed at EUR 14-16K excluded taxes (USD 16,8-19,2K).

How much for the same boats in the US?

The majority of Capricorns have gone to Europe and Goodall is talking about producing 100 sets of hulls for the 2006 model boats in the next 12 months. So 5 boats will be 5% there annual production for the states with not much more for Australia...... Europe however are hungry for more.

Perhaps Goodall sees an opportunity in the States in a growing F18 class where many are having difficulty getting support from the native manufacturers at the moment.

I am happy to hear that AHPC plans to build 100 Capricorns in the next 12 months or about 2 boats a week.
However most European and US customers expect to get their boats in the next 2-3 months and are not ready to commit for a late July-early August delivery.
Now you can see that shifting 5 to 7 boats from a market to another is an important decision

Taipan (and Capricorn) Forum - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taipan/

You will find that most of these boats will go to Europe and also many available for charter at the Worlds then sold off there as second hand boats..... A few (ie 5 at the moment) will go to the US and I believe is a very wise move. I can't see many Capricorns being sold in OZ soon as the season is winding up for us..... May be new boats on order for the start of next season as well as charter boats for the AUS Worlds.

Wouter - I would like to know about the changes that you know of that they are making to the Formula 18s, specifically Tigers, but anything will help. Besides the fact that the main and spinnaker sail shapes have changed. Sounds like you know of some ideas that could be incorporated in our rather "low tech" region. We, California, do not seem to change anything on the boats. We are heading for Europe this summer and would like to be somewhat competitive. If you could clue us North Americans in...I for one would really appreciate it.

Later,
Dan

The last three big F18 events here in Aust were won by STOCK STANDARD Class-legal Tigers. One event was won with the old sail plan! The standard Tiger gear delivers top performance here in a very competitive fleet.
There is a lot of hype around but this is a fact.

Pretty standard upgrades to the stock Tigers are/used to be (from memory) :

-1- Downhaul going from non-cascading 1:8 to cascading 1:12
-2- Replacing all cordage and trim lines with swiftcord, dyneema and D12.
-3- Loose boom fitted mast rotation system. Replace any purchase system by a simple 1:2 and jam cleat system.
-4- Taper the mainsheet.
-5- Replacing the snuffer system. Even the newest Hobie snuffer is not well received overhere.
-6- Move about some of the cleats to personal preference. Most often moved was spinnaker halyard cleat.
-7- Often the single line spi halyard system was replace by a double line system.

I'm sure a few more mods will pop up in my head tomorrow, but this should get you started.

I've heard some claims that Hobie has been offer a Mitch Booth Tiger to serious European F18 sailors; this version was said to have most of the mods straight from the factory/dealers.

In the past all the sails would be replaced as well, BUT the new stock pentex STX suit of sails seem to be rather good. In the past hobie spinnakers were pretty mediocre but I don't hear people complain about them anymore so I guess these were improved as well.

Some replace the joysticks by much lighter ones, improves speed in manouvres.

Before the STX sails and Hobie offering modified Tigers directly it was said that an additional 3000 Euro's was needed to make a stock 15.000 Euro Tiger competitive in the top segment of the F18 class.

Personally I think we all must really do alot of on the water practising before thinking about mods and spending money on it. Pretty much my rule of thumb is :

If you are not consistantly finishing in the top 20 % of any fleet then no modification to your boat will make you more competitive. Only improving your skills will. From then onward, I regard mods that make your sailing and manouvres quicker and smoother to be more valuable then new sails etc.


I hope this helps.

Wouter

What's the rationale for placing the spi halyard cleat on the beam vs mast (ie, any advantages or disadvantages of beam vs mast)?

Jerry

All personal taste..... My crew prefers mast. I have tried both and both ok, but also prefer mast. Just personaly feel more comfortable.

Thank you Wouter:

I have had the boat so long I guess I did not consider all the changes that I have made to it. Come to think of it getting a new boat will be a pain considering this.

-1- Downhaul going from non-cascading 1:8 to cascading 1:12
[color:"blue"]I did put on a 12:1 and thinking about 16:1 (my crew has mentioned that she may like it)[/color]
-2- Replacing all cordage and trim lines with swiftcord, dyneema and D12.
[color:"blue"]Most of the cordage is changed. All I saw was [color:"red"]red[/color], every line was red, when I got the boat. I could not distinguish anything while sailing.[/color]
-3- Loose boom fitted mast rotation system. Replace any purchase system by a simple 1:2 and jam cleat system.
[color:"blue"]Moved rotation control to the side of the boat.[/color]
-4- Taper the mainsheet.
[color:"blue"]Tapered Vectron to Conception for the Mainsheet, Spinnaker halyard and Spin sheet.[/color]
-5- Replacing the snuffer system. Even the newest Hobie snuffer is not well received overhere.
[color:"blue"]Made my own endpole snuffer even before I ever set the chute. We, crew and I, both love and are still using it after 2 1/2 years. Actually, I made a redesign and the one we are using now is 2 years old.[/color]
-6- Move about some of the cleats to personal preference. Most often moved was spinnaker halyard cleat.
[color:"blue"]Put a swivel cleat on the mast, for the spinnaker halyard, based on recommendation from Pease and Jay.[/color]
-7- Often the single line spi halyard system was replace by a double line system.
[color:"blue"]One reason we went to the end pole system.[/color]

Other changes I have made:
[color:"blue"]New STX sail
Put an extra strap in the middle of the trampoline for more choices downwind.
Added foot straps to the transom and retractable chicken line for crew's downwind comfort.[/color]

I will still take the advice, I am sure there are things that I would like to add, if I know what they are. An example is a nice spinnaker line organizing system that Alex and Nigel have. I have not quite figured out the mounting on my boat.

Later,
Dan