What will be the fate of the I-20's, post Worrell? Will the fleet die off, or will the used market pick up, then build the fleet?....



Does the fact that it's no longer a Worrell boat have any negitve outcomes?.....



Just wondering?

Talked to one of the Worrell teams at Isle of Palms, selling off both boats pretty cheap to make way for buying a F18HT, my buddy's trying to get one of them.

Guess this is a good year to pick up a I-20.

I like the HT better for the general performance sailing population, especially for us smaller sailors, but ya gotta wonder about sailing the Worrell in ANY 18 foot boat. As the boat length shrinks, the waves get proportionally bigger.

CARY

Congratulations to the F18HT class ofcourse, this will be a good endurence test, No doubt about that.



But why would the 18HT's be better "especially for us smaller sailors" ?



I've seen the claims of 250 lbs crews in 32 knot winds and I've seen Tim's comments on other forums. And I think Tim makes the right comments.



I also know that an mathematical analysis presented by the F16 class some weeks ago was simply dismissed by some. But it remains remarkable that the ONLY scientific and verifiable analysis ever made concluded an optimal weight of 310 lbs for a boat with the same width, smaller sailarea and a shorter mast. Based on winds ranging from 7 knots to some 18 knots.



I've seen the next version of the analysis with the data for the 2001/2002 Taipan nationals entered and the earlier presented article seems to be confirmed by the new data.



I would expect the 18HT optimal crewweight to be at least somewhere between the F16 optimal crew weight and that of the I-20's. My personal opinion is that it is probably closer to the I-20's crewweight than it is to the Taipans.



Now I expect to be quoted the race results of the 18ht's of the last 3 months. And my reply will then be to take a look at the Carnac 2002 results as well as the 2001 results. Here the results are the complete opposite of the US results.



Naturally the 18HT's don't have jibs that is true, but how much work is a self tacker ? Especially when the jib is a rather small high aspect one with lower sheet loads.



But having said this. For USD 5000,- what can you loose ?



Wouter

They did it for years on Hobie 16's and then when "opened up" it was done several times with 18 footers and the last time a "little" boat did it was when we used a Taipan 5.7 against the Nacra and Mystere 6.0's. As long as everyone has the same equipment it will all be relative.

I know as ground crew it will be a LOT nicer to move an F 18HT around compared to an Inter 20!

I'm ready to ground crew again next year! Anybody need crew?

Wouter-

F 18HT's I would expect to be better for "smaller" sailors due to the lighter boat and sheet loads. Easier to right (I assume) and move around on shore, shorter, lighter daggerboards. Ability to have flatter sails than a heavier crew.

Same reasons a F 16HT is easier on smaller persons than a Hobie 16 (IMO). I think this is a great thing for all the new "lightweight" boats-

>>F 18HT's I would expect to be better for "smaller" sailors due to the lighter boat and sheet loads.



Ahh yes, it would be easier to move around on shore, absolutely.



It is also nice to see that different crewweights can use different sails. That will level out the playing field a bit more. A bit of a pitty that it isn't a formula 18HT race but a Jav 2 race. This will limit the adjustibility a bit. From the A-cat we know that a different cut of sail is best service by having a different mast at the same time. These tow go hand in hand and the current deal is that all boats must have Jav 2 hulls and the same stick.



>> I think this is a great thing for all the new "lightweight" boats-



Well that it is and I look forward to the Worrell 1000 in 2004 being a true Formula 18HT race.



Wouter

Well said Kirt. Not gonna try and beat Wouter on stats, but even he says reports are conflicting from different sources. New boat not enough people with experience on it yet. To me, it's just simple physics, there are times when it's just you against the boat.

Lighter boat means easier manageability of the craft under those circumstances where more of your effort is needed just to manupulate the weight of the boat. I could muscle my H-17's weight most any direction I wanted or needed, My 5.5's a different story, have to finesse the mass of the boat since I can't outmuscle it.

CARY

Well, I keep forgetting that the I-20 was raced as a one-design in the worell and not as an iF20.



So indeed the F18HT will bring in the advantage of being to adjust the cut of the sail to your weight. I overlooked that. In the iF20 this was already standard.



The rest indeed simply physics.



Wouter

The question implies that the Inter 20 was built with the Worrell 1000 in mind. Is that really the case?



While the Worrell 1000 is a great race, it remains an armchair adventure for most of us and I don't see how we can let an annual distance race up the east coast become the event that defines what we sail around the buoys (or otherwise). After all, we don't see a run of monohull sailors unloading their J boats, etc. to go out and get the latest Volvo Ocean 60, do we?

My question was one of vision...



As many people are aware, there are several boats in which one can race, buy, and sail. Popularity will certainly come into play but has little meaning if backed by a quality product. So now the market will be flooded with I-20's (think econ 101), am I to assume that more people will buy the I-20 now that the price is falling,and as a result the fleets will grow (in the used market at least)...or is the fate of the 20 foot cats around the corner?

I don't think the change is Worrell boats will affect the I20. People were buying them before they were selected for the Worrell for the same reason almost all people buy them now.



I bought mine because it was a super performing, well-thought-out boat that is very fun to sail recreationally. The spinnaker is easy to use, and really turbocharges performance downwind. The boat is extremely user-friendly, built to a very high quality, steers like a dream, and is easy to sail. These same features also make it a good race boat. None of this will change.



Now, if I could get a 300 lb version of the I20, that would be even better. I applaud the improvement in cat technology exemplified by the F16HP/F18HT class. I think we all will benefit from this over time, just as we all benefited when mylar sails became common, or in the way that easy-to-use spinnakers are becoming more common now.



Sail fast and have fun,

Alan Thompson

I20 - San Diego

Michael,



Falling prices on used boats will only result in a transfer of Inter 20's to non-Worrell influenced sailors. This will not change the net size of the fleet unless combined with continued sales of new boats (whose prices will likely remain stable).

I would like to remind you that Jim Boyer developed, built and raced the Taipan 4.9 in 1988. And with a spinnaker.

He figured out the "light boat thing" long ago.

The Taipan 4.9 is still built and sold as a class legal Taipan 4.9, NOT an f16.

The f16 class has had nothing whatsoever to do with the developement of ANY boat.

All of the f16 boats existed in some form before the class was ever dreamed of.

Give credit where credit is due, not where the most noise comes from.

Sam-

I totally agree with all your points about the Taipan 4.9 (and in fact his comment about getting a 300 lb. I20 is already possible to some extent in the Taipan 5.7 which we raced in the Worrell in 1999- the first of the "new, lightweight boats" to do so). Not to argue with you but you have overlooked the fact there is one (currently) boat that was designed exactly to the F 16HP rules as now in effect and that is the Stealth F 16HP. True, it is a development of the original Stealth 16 via a "Stealth R" prototype, but it is significantly different from the original Stealth and built to the F 16HP rule. According to the builder they are selling (and sailing) quite well in the UK this season (just introduced at the recent London boat show this Spring). By the way, do you still have your 18 sq.? Someone contacted me looking for one in TX if you're interested-



Regards,

Kirt

I believe unless the new boat can outrace the I-20s and 6.0s in the local distance races it will become a well respected also ran. I understand the little people being excited about a boat they can handle but unless it wins open races no one will care. I hope this is the beginning of a low priced easy to handle revolution but I will reserve judgement until I see the real results. I think a 22' boat with a 10' beam would be a better choice.

Hello Sam,



>>I would like to remind you that Jim Boyer developed, built and raced the Taipan 4.9 in 1988. And with a spinnaker.



Very true ! Still that spi they used in '88 was a few generations back from the spis that the boats use now. This field has seen quite some development over time.



>>He figured out the "light boat thing" long ago.



As did the A-cat sailors and class, that is also were Jim got his inspiration from. So I guess we all continue to build on the foundations laid down by others.



>>The Taipan 4.9 is still built and sold as a class legal Taipan 4.9, NOT an f16.



The Taipan 4.9 is sold with spi from the dealors. T4.9 rules don't allow spi's, so what is this boat then if it isn't a F16 ?



>>The f16 class has had nothing whatsoever to do with the developement of ANY boat.



Actually, like kirt says the Stealth F16 is build to the rule and as a direct result of the foundation of the F16 class. A few of us are building our own versions of a F16 boat of which the most experimental one is currently build in the USA. All to the fullest of the F16 rules. It is not unthinkable AT ALL that these experimentations eventually lead to a second design that is fully designed to the F16 rule in something like 1 to 2 years time. If my vote carries any weight than this design will be put into plan form and available to homebuilders AND builders that buy the hulls/boards and mast and finish the boat from that. The first option is not for most sailors but the second option IS as we can handle a drill and a rivet tang. And all the other hardware can easily be source locally.



You may reply with just "Promises, promises" Then I underline that the boats currently build and being build as a direct result of the F16 class are :



-1- Stealth F16

-2- My own F16 design called the Typhoon F16

-3- The F16 design build by Bob H. in the USA with completely redesigned hulls



All of these are confirmed and I didn't count the others that have bought the plans but haven't started building.





>>All of the f16 boats existed in some form before the class was ever dreamed of.



As Kirt indeicated, this is simply not true. As per above three different designs are currently being build of which one is already commercially offered.



>>Give credit where credit is due, not where the most noise comes from.



Indeed, so how about giving us some more credit. A group of homebuilders, sailmakers, class enthousiasts and sailors are working very hard on new fully optimized designs, the webpage and the growth of the class.



We all as a class congratulate the F18HT class on the decision to make make the Javelin B the Worrell 2003 boat. Which is also a direct result of the class and not a mere result of the design existing.



And we are confident that both classes are here to stay and well definately advance the catamaran scene in the USA.



Having said this, I believe personally that the I-20 class will not die out and remain as a popular class. You guys are all way too jumpy about these things.



And to the sailors outthere. The F18HT's gets all the attention right now and rightly so but do not make the mistake in thinking that the F16 class will wither away now.



We are going strong, our forum page is very active, our homepage contains more content that the bulk of the other cat webpages outthere and the techies in our group are working on new designs and setups.



Go lightweight !



Wouter

Comment to all,



The Worrell boats are an excellant proving ground.



The next years race will indeed prove to be very interesting.



However, hull design, lightness, sail/mast configuration all must pass the ulitmate physics laboratory,...the offshore open ocean.



I have seen the I-20 perform in conditions that a'normal' person would not go out in. The I-20 passes the test of a open ocean boat.



Let me give you an example. Blowing 25mph in 3-4 foot sustained seas, the I-20 lifts a hull and drives upwind so comfortably that the crew was having a casual conversation about the upcoming mark rounding,...(where I was white knuckleing it all the way watching them go past me, close enough to hear them talk)..



The true test is leg #12 and the Finish leg of this years Worrell 1000,.........will the new boat withstand this ultimate 'physics' lab..........



Bruce

St. Croix, US Virgin Islands

>>I would like to remind you that Jim Boyer developed, built and raced the Taipan 4.9 in 1988. And with a spinnaker.

Very true ! Still that spi they used in '88 was a few generations back from the spis that the boats use now. This field has seen quite some development over time.

SE- But the f16 class, and you, had nothing to do with it.



>>He figured out the "light boat thing" long ago.

As did the A-cat sailors and class, that is also were Jim got his inspiration from. So I guess we all continue to build on the foundations laid down by others.

SE- So now you know what Jim Boyer is thinking? But everyone else doesn't try to take credit for it.



>>The f16 class has had nothing whatsoever to do with the developement of ANY boat.

Actually, like kirt says the Stealth F16 is build to the rule and as a direct result of the foundation of the F16 class.

SE - BULL. The Stealth R was designed in 1996, before YOU ever heard of Stealth or Taipan. They made a few minor adjustments to fit the rule. Nothing resembling a "new" design.



A few of us are building our own versions of a F16 boat of which the most experimental one is currently build in the USA.

You may reply with just "Promises, promises" Then I underline that the boats currently build and being build as a direct result of the F16 class are :



-1- Stealth F16

SE- See above.

-2- My own F16 design called the Typhoon F16

SE- You stole the Taipan platform DESIGN, changed the name and put a taller mast on it and you call yourself a "Designer"? We were stretching the masts on our 18squares TEN YEARS ago, but we never called ourselves "Designers".

-3- The F16 design build by Bob H. in the USA with completely redesigned hulls

SE- Where has it raced? Where are the pictures? How many is he going to build? A one-off backyard boat does not count as another manufacturer.

Your own website has the facts a figures which continually prove you are a liar.



>>All of the f16 boats existed in some form before the class was ever dreamed of.

As Kirt indeicated, this is simply not true. As per above three different designs are currently being build of which one is already commercially offered.

SE- Yours IS NOT a design. Taipan, BIM16, Stealth R, Isotope are all real mfg boats that existed prior to you.



>>Give credit where credit is due, not where the most noise comes from.

Indeed, so how about giving us some more credit. A group of homebuilders, sailmakers, class enthousiasts and sailors are working very hard on new fully optimized designs, the webpage and the growth of the class. We are going strong, our forum page is very active, our homepage contains more content that the bulk of the other cat webpages outthere and the techies in our group are working on new designs and setups.

SE- Credit for what? Lightweight 16foot boat existed before you ever held a tiller. Half the posts on your website are you and Kirt, you even answer your own posts. You are stealing from Rick by posting boats and sails for sale without buying an ad.

Where is your boat by the way?

You keep changing your story about where it is, why it isn't built, shipping a mast from AUS, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Are really that stupid as you act or do you just like to be a major league pain in the butt ?



It is you that keeps spreading rumours around and not me. My boat and mast are still where they've always been and where I told them to be. Your innuendo doesn't change. Ooops difficult word, I probably shouldn't use those in your presence.



Now $$#@# off



Wouter

mhhh, pipo wonders where this special respect & dignity normally found amongst sailors has been lost??? hey guys, we probably enjoy one of most beautiful sports in the world (apart from flying i guess). lets not get to much wrapped up about knots, performance, rankings and boat designs, it is simply not worth it. rather enjoy being out there on the water having a great time.



am i too philosophical here??



pipo