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Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: DougSnell] #70923
04/03/06 06:07 PM
04/03/06 06:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 66
Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
ReefedOne Offline
journeyman
ReefedOne  Offline
journeyman
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 66
Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Can someone post a link/pic of a proper "chicken line"? Thanks in advance.

After a long hiatus I recently proved that if you've completely lost all your moves and coordination, you CAN pitchpole a P-16... luckily in my flailing about I "surfed" up the shroud a bit such that the crew and I splashed down with good separation. Light bruises, heavy laughter. Coulda been worse. Some fore-aft restraint probably would've prevented the whole scenario... CHICKEN LINE?


-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: ReefedOne] #70924
04/03/06 06:15 PM
04/03/06 06:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline
old hand
Dan_Delave  Offline
old hand
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
How about this?

[Linked Image]

Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: bullswan] #70925
04/03/06 06:38 PM
04/03/06 06:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
flumpmaster Offline
addict
flumpmaster  Offline
addict
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
A friend of mine flipped his Nacra 6.0 and his shin slid part way under the hiking strap as the boat was turning on its side. He fell out into space with his leg trapped in that position and over extended the knee - ripping the tendons badly. Two (or it could be three) years later he appears fully recovered after some expensive surgery and rehabilitation.

The problem was the hiking straps were very well attached to the trampoline. I got into a similar situation on a Hobie Tiger and was delighted when I heard the stitching on the hiking strap rip at the back of the tramp, rather than my tendons. I would advocate manufacturers making a weaker attachment of the straps to prevent this type of injury. Has anyone else experienced a similar injury?

I have also seen two female crews with permanent scars from contacting wire stays during pitch poles. Both are tough individuals who still race. On my boat I fitted slip on shroud covers on the the bottom 3ft of the wires to reduce the chance of this type of injury.

My wife had a near miss hitting the front cross beam with her head while on the wire after I stuffed a Hobie 18 Magnum and she was trapped out on the wings. Helmets may not be such a bad idea. I wouldn't dream of skiing, climbing or mountain biking without one.

Chris.


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: dacarls] #70926
04/03/06 08:44 PM
04/03/06 08:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
I would not consider a chicken line a "safety" item. It will help prevent some, perhaps a majority, of capsizes / pitchpoles. However, when you do go in and still are hooked in to the chicken line, your fall from grace can be a bit more trecherous. Looking up as I was sliding down a trampoline (boat going over on it's side after something went wrong - can't remember what) I saw David Mosley go for a flying leap off the transom of the boat only to be caught short by the chicken line leaving him landing head first into the sail. It wasn't perty.

Imagine a pitchpole where the boat endo's and you're restricted by the chicken line. I would rather be thrown clear personally. That being said, the chicken line is indespensable as an energy and near pitch pole saver while distance racing.


Jake Kohl
Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: Jake] #70927
04/04/06 03:31 AM
04/04/06 03:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
I guess "chicken lines" have evolved to something more sophisticated than what I remember from the Hobie 18. As I recall, it used to be that a chicken line was a line that went along under the outside lip of the hull and was bungied somehow at each end (or maybe just the forward end). We never used one ourselves, so I don't know exactly how it was fastened. But when sailing in heavy air, you just pulled the line out when you were on the trapeze and held onto it with one hand to keep from being thrown forward.

I can't even imagine wanting to have something like that actually attached to me.

Now that catamarans don't have "lips" any more where the deck joins the hull, maybe that "old-fashioned" type of chicken line is not feasible any more except on the older boats.

Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: Mary] #70928
04/04/06 07:43 AM
04/04/06 07:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
There are countless variations out there. I have used a system that used small carbiners to attach to the trapeze dogbone and that worked well (and didn't attach directly to the sailor). I've also used a system where we tied a short tail with a stopper ball to each side of our trapeze harness. The chicken line had the prusik knots but terminated in a spliced eye. We would simply put the spliced eye around the stopper ball to connect in. It was very easy to undo but it did add another connection point directly to the sailor.

That advantage of the stopper ball system is that there is nothing banging the leward hull but the eye-spliced line.


Jake Kohl
Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: Jake] #70929
04/04/06 08:03 AM
04/04/06 08:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 65
Kuwait
Zee Offline
journeyman
Zee  Offline
journeyman
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 65
Kuwait
My first sailing injury is by far my worst.
I was 11 at the time and had just started sailing lessons about 2 weeks ago. There was a REALLY strong wind out and I was with my "sailing buddy". What happened was that I was staring at the view and not paying attention and before I knew it my "buddy" sailed the boat to the right and the boom came at me with full force I was knocked uncouncious and ended up getting stitches .. I practically flew off the boat and needless to say I ALWAYS pay attention now .. and I tend to duck a bit more than necessary when moving around the boom.


Zawy03@gmail.com Hobie 16 (Soon to be Nacra A2) 100449
Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: Mary] #70930
04/04/06 09:44 AM
04/04/06 09:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote
I guess "chicken lines" have evolved to something more sophisticated than what I remember from the Hobie 18. As I recall, it used to be that a chicken line was a line that went along under the outside lip of the hull and was bungied somehow at each end (or maybe just the forward end). We never used one ourselves, so I don't know exactly how it was fastened. But when sailing in heavy air, you just pulled the line out when you were on the trapeze and held onto it with one hand to keep from being thrown forward.

I can't even imagine wanting to have something like that actually attached to me.

Now that catamarans don't have "lips" any more where the deck joins the hull, maybe that "old-fashioned" type of chicken line is not feasible any more except on the older boats.


I had that on my 18, it was called the "Hawaiian RIghting System" - a thick line with bungee in the forward half that ran around the deck of the boat. I had installed specifically as a "preventer" to be grabbed onto the way you mentioned after seeing it in action on the Hobie video of the 18s playing in the surf.

When my wife took her flyer the winds were light, but there some lumpy waves that just knocked her feet out. Didn't take much to produce a major ouch.

I'm a big proponent of not having chicken lines attach directly to the sailor - in a bad situation I want to be able to blow the trap line off my harness and be free.

Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: Keith] #70931
04/04/06 10:52 AM
04/04/06 10:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
I'm toying with the idea of a small cleat on the center portion of the trapeze handle, to which you could quickly tie the chicken line once you're set on the hull. Then, you'd only have one connection to the sailor - the standard trapeze hoop.

Only drawback I see so far is that this cleat could go flying at your face if you are on the trampoline and the thing comes snapping back at you (if your crew drops out of it, for instance).

Oh, and I guess the section of trapeze hoop you connect the cleat to needs to be able to take a lot of shock loading...


Jay

Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: waterbug_wpb] #70932
04/04/06 01:41 PM
04/04/06 01:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline
old hand
Dan_Delave  Offline
old hand
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Never, never, never hook your chicken line to your harness. Ours attaches to the trapeze handle. It allows you to release out (unhook) as easily as if it were not there.

Jake:
I would argue that it is a safety device:
Racing: You will do anything to get maximum boat speed. That means that the crew will be out downwind in a breeze. They will be hooked to the trapeze to do this. If you stuff the bow the boat will stop or at the very least slow down fast. This will keep your crew from ending up somewhere around the cheese cutter front end of the boat.

Other than racing: If you do not send the crew out on the wire downwind you do not need it.

The Chicken line is only for downwind sailing on my boat.

Mary:
The line you are talking about is a combination of Chicken and Righting line. It will work (kind of) for a boat that does not require a crew to constantly mess with a spinnaker. It is really only in effect when on a reach. If you are going downwind on a non-spinnaker boat both bodies are on-board. It depends on the strength of the crew as the skipper will bang in the crew when the line is needed, then the crew is holding everyones weight.

Later,
Dan

Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: Dan_Delave] #70933
04/04/06 01:50 PM
04/04/06 01:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote

Other than racing: If you do not send the crew out on the wire downwind you do not need it.

The Chicken line is only for downwind sailing on my boat.



I'll say that's not true. In racing we tend to only go up and downwind. For recreational sailing, a smoking reach is great fun. You'll be on the wire, and having a chicken line is a good idea for those times the boat takes a wave and slows or takes a dive.

Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: Keith] #70934
04/04/06 05:03 PM
04/04/06 05:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
old hand
dacarls  Offline
old hand
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
PLEASE LISTEN TO MARY!
The chicken line is for the crew's aft hand: also it then allows movement fore and aft to trim the boat so you don't stuff or pitchpole the dumb thing and then go flying forward still on the wire. Also it does not take much hand strength to hold on to the chicken line while the boat is slowing down. Even a thin line (1/4 inch or 8 mm) is ok.

IMHO There is NO reason for a crew to be tied to the boat with a carabiner, or a dogbone to be tied to the chicken line. I think that would be like totally coo-coo!

Now the Worrell 1000- at night- in a half gale is different!


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: dacarls] #70935
04/04/06 05:08 PM
04/04/06 05:08 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
for the distance races we put on the loop/ball system that jake mentioned. It really straps you in well to the boat, so well in fact that if both crew are chickened in the rear, it will save a pitchpole from even happening.

Plus, if you're a crew and you're washed out by a wave, it can keep you from knocking the skipper off the back of the boat.

The loop/ball system is very easy to get in and out of and can be disengaged while under pressure. In fact, if you're not in the trap ring, then the ball isn't going to retain you during a capsize.

Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: MauganN20] #70936
04/05/06 10:08 AM
04/05/06 10:08 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,074
Northfield,NH USA
bullswan Offline OP
Pooh-Bah
bullswan  Offline OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,074
Northfield,NH USA
Now I'm confused.....
Does the chicken line (hate that name btw -would prefer flying crew preventer) string through the rear beam in that drawing Dan did? If so, doesn't it interfer with the helmsman when it crosses him/her going to the forward trap dogbone? Seems like it would be another thing to watch out for when the helmsman slips off the tramp to go out on the wire. I like the idea of having a line to hang on to for the forward crew to steady themselves with in rough seas or in the event of a .........unplanned deceleration, but not at the expense of yet another thing to get wrapped up in or untangle or trip over.

If it's going through the forward beam I can't see how it would help on the unplanned deceleration situation since the line would, more than likely, be running forward of the crew on the wire.

I know I'm missing something but I just can't picture this...


One last thing..... how do you think it would be if when the family is on the boat (ie not racing) using those foam noodles with a slit all the way length-wise put over the shrouds to protect body parts in the event of a flight forward? I'm even thinking of putting them on the trap wires. It would look stupid but so does wire marks on skin.

Greg


The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised. - George Will
"It's not that liberals aren't smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so" -Ronald Reagan
Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: bullswan] #70937
04/05/06 10:26 AM
04/05/06 10:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Greg,

The hook in question remains retracted and just barely sticking out of the rear beam. When trapezing with the spinnaker up, the crew first goes out on the wire, then reaches down on the rear beam for the hook, and attaches it to their trapeze dogbone. When getting ready to jibe, they unhook the hook first, allowing it to retract again, before coming in off the wire for the jibe.


Jake Kohl
Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: Jake] #70938
04/05/06 10:38 AM
04/05/06 10:38 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
Here you can see Trey hooked into the ball and loop system. He must have had some issues getting washed off the back because he's hooked in from the front.
http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/69929-Pcola-Panama%20Trip%20022.jpg

Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: MauganN20] #70939
04/05/06 10:45 AM
04/05/06 10:45 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
I know this is heresy, but when things get really bad, I slow down, or go to the beach.

Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: fin.] #70940
04/05/06 10:49 AM
04/05/06 10:49 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
well, it doesn't take that big of a wave for you to get your feet washed out from under you. Chicken Lines aren't used only for "nuclear" conditions.

Re: Sailing Injuries [Re: MauganN20] #70941
04/05/06 11:17 AM
04/05/06 11:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
old hand
NCSUtrey  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
Like I pointed out in another thread, those pictures didn't do the swells justice that day. Often, we were punching a wave and the water would try to wash me off the back. Aren't those some nice Barz goggles I have? (Thanks Murray's!)
The chicken line system I have gone to on my boat is different from the one Jake posted a pic of. Our new way is much simpler and easier to rig. Thanks to Charlie and Harry from Key Sailing for the setup idea.
The line is tied to a footstrap at the very rear of the hull. It runs forward all the way to the front bridle wires, and then goes through a shackle that I have put in place of a pin where the bridle connects to the hull. It goes through that shackle, and turns back toward the tramp. About halfway between the bridle and the tramp, I have directly connected the line to some 1/4" bungee, which then is tied to a tramp lacing about halfway back the tramp. There is a rope-lock (like used on a trapeze system, the little black "8" looking piece), that is on the line between that shackle and the bungee to allow adjustment for how far out you want the chicken line to go. Works like a charm! If you look on the starboard hull in the attached pic, you can see the where the line runs through the shackle and back to the tramp (including were the bungee connects in).

Attached Files

Trey
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