Check your definitions guys!

Basic rule of sailing -

rule 11: When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

The operative words here are "keep clear" as defined:

Keep clear: One boat keeps clear of another if the other can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and when the boats are overlapped on the same tack, if the leeward boat can change course in both directions without immediatly making contact with the windward boat.

My reading of the situation is as follows:

Any windward boat relying on Rule 16.1 in a protest should be in for dissapointment however if there is a collision, leeward boats might be in trouble under rule 14.

Tiger Mike

Yeah, you are probably well within the rules to pull that one but it is also stupid. Firstly, since 99% of the time you aren't in the same division, you are slowing both yourself and somebody else down - how stupid is that???

Next - check out rule 22.2 - you might wind up with the dickhead of the month award!

Tiger Mike

Do you guys think these rules discussions are really helpful? Or do they just confuse people with all the different interpretations, some of which are not even based upon the same scenario of events?

So there I was....I-20...charging to the gate...wife handling the spi sheets.....when all of a sudden....H-16 in our path! WE HAD NO RIGHTS!...so what did we do...??

ME: (YELLING) DUMP THE SHEETS
HER: DUMPING THE SHEETS
ME: SLAMMING THE HELM OVER...HEADING UP....
HER: YELLING...OH MY *&^% GOD
ME: OH *(&^^ MY GOD...HEADING UP
SPI: RUFFLING UMONGST THE JIB...
I-20...ROUNDING UP PERFECTLY...
HER: RE-TRIMMING AFTER OUR 360....

I-20: PASSING THE GATE AFTER THE 360....PASSING THE H-16 UPWIND WITH THE CREW YELLING...."WE ARE SO SORRY"...

and pouring us a beer after the regatta.....follow the rules..have fun...make freinds...and sail to the best you can be.....

Yes, very helpfull; This one thread has identified (and hopefully corrected) some glaring holes in a couple of peoples understanding of fairly basic rules. It has to be a good thing.

Hi All,

Nice post!

A word about ' us port layline' types.

It is wonderful thing that a Uni lays the top mark in 2 tacks.....[ which is why we are on port tack]

..when the I-20's,Tornadoes, P19MX's and N5.8's [ down here] do it in 3 [4,5,..] tacks....[ mostly, they are away back when I round, except for the I-20, which can go fast upwind]



.....the traffic at the top mark is the mono fleet that started before us. [ which is moving the best they can, ie, slooooooow, however, all rules still apply]

Last comment;

What age is considered ' old guy' ?

[ I'm 53..

...6 time H 16{current} Champ Kiki Figueroa is in his 40's, at St. Thomas Rolex last month, his H-16(non-spin) beat a Spin Tornado{DPN},...imagine that..]

..go sailing,...have some fun!

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix
USVI
I-17

The H-16 driver I referred to in my post was probably in his late 50's or 60's and had a young female crew. I speak of him in admiration because I (at the young age of 47) certainly hope to still be active like him when I am in my 50's and 60's (Gordon Isco is one of my heros!). I was bummed to see him discouraged by the incident. Like I said earlier, the I-20 could have easily headed up a few degrees if they had anticipated him earlier. Once more, I believe the I-20 driver probably realizes that he could have avoided the situation and he'll know what to do next time.

I'll make my point once more. If you are the faster boat and have the right of way, you have more control of the situation then the slower give way boat. Look ahead and try to communicate to the slower boat what you will do or what you want them to do especially if you see they are tyring to keep clear but cannot get out of your way fast enough.

Heads up sailing will not only keep you safe but will keep you sailing faster and smarter. Carlton Tucker always preached getting your head out of the boat and that advice is never more important than now when many sailors have all that sail area in front of the boat.

Sail fast, smart, and safe.

Bob Hodges

That's good advice, Bob, but it is not really consistent with the rules for a faster boat to give way to a slower boat even when the faster boat has right-of-way.

And I think that the rules that have been developed over many decades do not seem to take into consideration the problems encountered between boats of greatly different speed levels.

I think the rules in general have been developed in terms of one-design racing, and they also work for handicap racing for boats of very similar speeds.

But when you have a Wave sailing straight downwind with big, fast, spinnaker boats criss-crossing the course, or when you have Wave sailing upwind with big, fast spinnaker boats crossing them, the Wave is like a deer in the headlights. It really cannot do much to get out of the way, any more than, as I said earlier in this thread, a tractor on a freeway. You just have to pray that the traffic sees you and flows around you. It is very intimidating to people like me, and I just drop out of the regatta.

Maybe the fast boats will experience this intimidation factor if they are on the course with hydrofoil boats that are going 35 knots while the non-hydrofoil boats are going only 18 knots.

As I said, these problems can be resolved by courses that are properly set up to accommodate boats of greatly different speeds.

But that still does not address the rules issues when boats of drastically different speeds meet on the race course.

Maybe we should be required to have whistle signals or something, but can people on other boats actually hear whistles from another boat when they are screaming downwind or charging through waves upwind? Rick can't even hear a whistle if I blow it in our own living room, because he can't hear high-pitch sounds.

Mary,

Have you got some examples of how courses can be set to compensate for this?

One thing we have done is to set a shorter course for the slower boats by adding a different colored A mark downwind of the long course A mark.

This doesn't address boats with big speed differences meeting at C mark. That could be resolved with another C mark for the short course (but we ony have 3 marks at the moment).

We have a fun regatta coming next weekend where we will have everything from Waves to I20s on the water - so all ideas are welcome. For quite a few people this will be their first race - I don't want it to be the last.

Chris.

Mary,

The rules state you have to avoid a collision so the faster right of way boat must alter course if necessary if the slower give way boat cannot get out of the way in time. It's then the decision of the right of way boat whether to protest. And that is why they have more control over the situation and that is why I believe it makes sense to just anticipate and steer around the slower boat. You typically lose nothing.

Bob

Very nice, Bob, except that I, chugging along on my Wave, have no way of knowing whether this spinnaker boat coming at me at warp speed even sees me, much less knows the rules (which is even more a concern after reading some of the posts lately). I have been thinking about taking an air horn on my boat to give a sound signal to let them know I am there.

Back in the mid 1970's my family was at Miami Yacht Club for the MidWinter Championships. My father and I were sailing a 16-foot Sizzler at the regatta (since I worked for that company at the time). It was a a breezy day, typical of the area, probably 15-knot wind. We were on our way out to the course at the beginning of the first day. All the boats had to tack out get out to the starting line. We were on starboard tack when all of a sudden a Tornado came out of nowhere on port tack and climbed aboard. We had yelled "starboard," but he did not hear us. His port hull came onto our deck right beside my father and undoubtedly would have killed him if it had hit him. The Tornado's starboard hull broke our port rudder off.

The Tornado sailor was from Canada and was campaigning for the Olympics at the time. So one would think he was an experienced sailor.

As he was shoving his boat off ours, he just said, "I didn't see you," as though it was our fault that he didn't see us. Never even said he was sorry. (And that was just a main and jib situation.)

So please forgive me if I do not trust anybody to see me, regardless of how experienced they are.

And, unfortunately, some people (who can afford it) when they first get a catamaran decide they might as well just start out with the biggest and the fastest. It's a recipe for disaster, either for themselves or for others around them.

I reread this thread once again and it was very clear to me that we would all do well going back to basics.

Here is some advice offered to the Junior Sailors of Long Island Sound. (by the junior sailors)

JSA Ethics Guidelines

Respected Sailors Always:
1. Know and abide by the Racing Rules. They promptly:
a. Take a penalty or retire when they know they broke a rule, or
b. File a protest when appropriate.
2. Obey event regulations, on and off the water, including housing rules.
3. Are organized, prepared, and responsible for their own equipment.
4. Show respect to fellow sailors and those helping to run the regattas and programs.

Respected Sailors Never:
1. Swear at, intimidate or harass anyone including teammates on or off the water.
2. Steal or borrow, without permission anything that does not belong to them.
3. Break laws related to alcohol, tobacco or illegal drugs.

You haven’t won the race if, in winning the race, you have lost the respect of your competitors, (Paul Elvstrom (Four-Time Olympic gold medalist.

These guideline were developed by junior sailors for The Junior Sailing Association of Long Island Sound. www.jsalis.org (A member of the United States Sailing Association, Inc)

Rule number one in each section seem particularly appropriate!

If we don't conduct ourselves appropriately and operate a fair game with clear rules... we will be doomed as a sport. The kids understand this and wrote a great set of guidelines... If we don't follow their lead...few will want to participate in our version of "chaos on the water" as Mary reported of her current and past experiences.

Bob H's comment that you have to look a few steps ahead... and Pat's comments about coaching the folks getting back into racing or the juniors are great ideas.

Reviewing the CURRENT RULES.... are a must for us "adults".... Hell the Opti kids... would probably crush us in a rules quiz!

I fully agree with most of what you posted, but...

Port (give way boat) is not required to
anticipate a round down turn at the mark by a starboard
(right of way) boat.

Starboard is bound by rule 16.1
to not change course unless he gives the port boat
"room" to keep clear. You can't just bear
away without regard to this obligation. There is no exception to this rule at mark roundings, except
in rule 18, and that rule does not apply because
of 18.1(b), boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward.
Only when 18.2(d)applies is there any obligation for
the give way boat to anticipate a maneuver by the
right of way boat.

This makes sense, as a port tacker simply can not make
a decision as to tacking away or bearing off without reading
the starboard tackers mind. How can port know how tight a turn starboard is planning to do at the mark?

I learned this one the hard way.

in case y'all don't know, Inter Michael was the I-20 skipper in the original incident

Bob Hodges:

I have looked at your avatar for a while and thought you might like one that works. Yours looks pinched. Use this one if you like it. I would have emailed it to you but there was no address in your profile.

Later,
Dan


http://catsailor.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10093/bob.jpg

ya'll would be happy to hear that we dodged plenty-a-H16 and other class boats whilst flying the chute this weekend at SF. We even de-powered once or twice to do it too.

And the rules of sailing were respected without incident!

I never said that I don't follow the rules of sailing.

You wrote



The rules of the game are critical to the dance on the water of all of the boats. When you don't know or respect the rules... and so you zig when you are expected to zag... just for the hell of it... OR perhaps you think you are being an understanding and caring guy ... You have or will create chaos.

How the hell are we suuposed to play the game. If people suddenly decide that they don't want to play by the agreed rules ...

One of the points stressed by Sturart Walker was the adherence to the sailing rules and schedule. He compared it to the broken window in the building situation... Pretty soon... nobody respects the rules and you have chaos.

Chaos is a hell of a good reason not to continue with racing.

For example, some have posted that they choose not to return to spring fever because in the past the RC was a bit loose with executing the standard racing rules. It is the same kind of thing here. There are consequences when you don't meet people's expectations and one of the big ones for me is the expectation that people will adhere to the rules to the best of their ability and if they screw up they make it right, learn from the expeince and move on.

it is blatantly clear that I'll never fully communicate the gist of my argument, because you retort with the same bullcrap every time. Whether its the send or receive end, its just not working.

I'm done here. Anyone is welcome to come find me at a regatta and have a discussion over a cold one about it.