For those of you who have not been reading the posts in the other threads.



There is a Formula 22 series under development and input is appreciated.



There is only one true 22 foot boat already in production the SC/ARC 22. Its specs are as follows.



Designer

Roberts / Haberman



Specifications



LOA: 22 ' 0" (6.71 m)

LWL: 21 ' 9" (6.63 m)

Minimum Weight: 415 lbs. (188.24 kg)

Spar: 38' 6" (11.73 m)

Maximum Sail Area: 360 sq. ft. (33.45 m2)

Beam: 12 ' 0" (3.66 m)

Draft, Rudders only: 2 ' 0" (0.61 m)

Draft, Board down: 4 ' 0" (1.22 m)



According to many other professional designers/builder a new technology 22 footer can be built in the 325-350 lbs range. Preliminary designs are for a uni-rig boat with a snuffer and a crew of two.



Question. Should a formula be drawn to allow boats of different sailplans to race within the SA max under one formula?



Question. Should an unmodified sc22 be allowed to compete as long as the boat falls WITHIN the formula rules?



Steve

Hello Steve-



I own a 22 [thats for sale] and of course I want this class to get started. I definitely feel that this class be should open to all modifications that fall under the stated set of parameters...ie if you want a main thats 360 sqft go for it. If you want a gennaker instead of spin or no jib or jib and hooter do it...Whatever innovation that can be used should be allowed. Yes an unmodifeied 22 should be alowed to compete as well. I feel that as long as you up show and you fall into the parameters then you qualify.



I don't know who these designers/builders are that are quoting this 325-350 lb range but my 22 has carbon hulls,boards,rudders, and hiking stick and aluminum mast/beams and weighs 467lbs. The hulls weigh 100 & 100.5lbs. with racing paint not gel coat. My spin pole is carbon [2 5/8OD] as well. The aluminum mast wiehs around 85lbs and the mian sail thats kevlar weighs 36lbs with battens whiile the jib weighs about 10lbs. These boats develop tremendous power [main sheet is 12:1] and if strength is sacrificed for weight savings then someone will pay the price!



Just remember the 22 was designed for winds under 20mph!!! I have a set of smaller sails about 270sq ft. I took out a potential buyer for this boat on a clear day. Of course when we were the farthest point on the lake from where we put in the wind came up. Its stared blowing about 15-25mph with gusts above 30mph. We had just come about when it hit. We pointed into the wind and accelerated to about 27mph. The reason I know is that a boat mechanic I know [tuning a Cigarrette on the water] followed us all the way back. The rigging was so loud we couldn't hear each other's screams. When we tacked under the lee side of the dam the boat tacked before my crew could get to the other side. We went through two cuts and finally back to the beach. The mechanic that followed us all the way back said we broke 28mph several times. All this with a sail plan thats approximately 100 sq feet less than the stock 22 sail plan. I don't know if the speeds quoted by the mechanic are accurate but I do know that if we were out there with the full 360sqft we would have been turtled for certain in those gusts.



I have included a link that shows my 22 in the last 10 pics I think.



fair winds,



Thom

ARC22 #2234

FMS SC20 #57



http://home.att.net/~t.r.merrill/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

The SC22 sounds like quite a handfull. How hard is it to unturtle it? Does the 12 foot beam make that real hard?



David Ho

TheMightyHobie18 1067

David



I have sailed the 22 a few times, flipped it twice (once on purpose and once due to the nut on the tiller (me)).



Flip was alot slower than a 20 and I probably could have recovered except for my lack of experience on boat. I have never heard of one turtling but I can tell you that we had no trouble righting the boat. It will float away from you real quick though if you get blown off.



Steve

Tom @ Aquarius says the mast is sealed and has enough bouyancy to stop the boat from turtling. What I was referring to was the strength of the gusts that day. If you landed in the main sail from a violent capsize turttling the boat could be possible. The 22 has shroud extenders that lower the hull past TDC and allows the hull weight to pull the boat back upright. The 22 is slow to come up but the weight of the mast [85lbs] is a factor that deserves attention in gusty conditions.



Thom

Has anyone considered that a SC 22 cost nearly $30K with sails and a trailer? The SC 22 cost more than a Marstrom 20 and is not as fast. The Marstrom demonstrates that lightweight unirig cats with spinnakers are proving FASTER and safer than the massive performance equivalents.



I have spoken to two SC 22 owners who have stated that in almost all conditions the M-20 is faster than the SC22. Why encourage bigger, more powerful, more dangerous cats, when lightweight alternatives such as the M-20 are available?

Another equal comparison is the I-20 and the F18HTs, the F-18HT is nearly as fast or as fast and is much lighter and easier to handle.



I thought that we were trying to move into the future, but I see some are hard to convince. Why do you think that the SC 22s are disappearling from the major distance races like the Miami to Key Largo, Hogsbreath 100 and Mug Race? Their owners are to beat up or spoked!



If you want a pro circuit, why do need such dinosaurs? They take an extra day before and after the race to set up and can only acheive their performance through massive sail area-NO FINESS INVOLVE. Go with a modern boat the M-20!



An aside-the SC22 has been known to turtle in the C-100 and Steeplechase. So much for mast buoyancy saving the day.

Isn't that the point of a Formula Class? Comparing boats the same length, width, height and sail area while allowing innovation from within those parameters to take place. Thats what catsailing is about "Inovation".



Which bothers you the most about the 22...cost [your figure is low] , setup time [I have put mine together singlehanded in 3 hours and down in 2.5 hours on an expandable trailer], "NO FITNESS INVOLVED [have you sailed one in heavy air??], or turtling [which all boats do]???



As far as being an old design; what about the Tornado before and after Marstrom started his quest??? The 22 basic design has not been significantly changed since 1992 I believe [Roberts will know]. Its a good design that a Formulas Class could be developed around with plenty of room for innovation.



thom

For a spec pro series, a boat that captures the imagination and is a bit of a hairy beast is what you want, IMO. Notice the success of the Aussie-18 skiff series. One of the reasons it makes for a good pro series and good TV is that you have to be on your game to do it. When the Pro Sail thing was going on, the 40s were the stars of the show, even though the other boats probably provided closer racing. They were big, visible, and sure looked like a handful (whether they were or not). For me, the 22 fits that kind of a bill - they're exciting, and they have the capability to capture the imagination. Just what is needed.



Anybody who thinks the ARC boats are dinosaurs haven't been around them much, I think. Maybe they're not the current minute's approach to design, but that also doesn't put them in the has-been categorie. Are people really parking them because they're scared and bruised? I'd gladly trade my boat, that will probably not scare or bruise them, with one of theirs if they'd like to feel better... ;-)

Feg,



You bring up a couple of points. The M-20 doesn't comply to any basic formula because of its beam and it is redundant to start another formula in the 20 foot range just due to beam issues.



Second, I have not seen a M-20 (DPN - 57.0) beat a sc22 (56.2) although the dpn's are close. Also, I think the only person sailing a M20 is Robbie Daniel. Also remember that the sc22 is quoted as the carbon comp 22.



Now about lightweight boats, they can be built lighter and stronger than the 22 and that is the point of the original question. Please look at the first one and answer that please.



The circuit will be run on 22 foot boats not 20's due to the ease of controlling the field (since there are not alot of 22's its easier to get manufacturer certificates stating the compliance of formula rules in construction to the specific boat) Thereby, reducing the workload of weighing every boat at every race versus having the manufacturer weigh the boat and then have the boats spot checked for compliance.



Steve

Steve,



You wrote-



"Second, I have not seen a M-20 (DPN - 57.0) beat a SC22 (56.2) although the dpn's are close. Also, I think the only person sailing a M20 is Robbie Daniel. Also remember that the sc22 is quoted as the carbon comp 22"



Steve, when was the last time you attended a major long distance race? The question would be better stated "When was the last time you saw a SC22 beat the M-20?". Because the SC 22s have all but disappeared from the major long distance races, I can cite the last two match ups. In the last C-100, the M-20 beat a well sailed SC22 boat for boat. In the last Steeplechase the M-20 beat the SC-22 badly, as well as all the other boats.



By today's standards the 450lbs+ SC22 is heavy and outdated. Let's move into the future. The SC22 (ARC22) overcomes inefficiency and mass through brute force and this simply is not necessary. As far as manufacturers certifying to the yet to be established "F-22 Class", I doubt that many outside of Aquarius (ARC/SC builder) will be willing to produce a carbon 22 footer. The market simply does not exist, now that the lightweight 20 (18s?) are showing better performance.



On another note, when was the last time you saw a SC22 beat a well sailed I-20 around a buoy course? Inefficiency and shear size precludes the SC22 from being a successful bouy racer. Who wants to watch sailors struggling around the bouys at paces slower than the M-20 or I-20 for that matter? There is a reason that the most successfull beach cat racing designs have been 20 ft or less (tending towards 18ft).

You bring up some good points. The boat was designed in the 80's with the latest technology at that time. The question was not should we race on sc22's? It was should be allow the 22 to run if it falls under the formula rules.



According to a world-class designer, "a new technology 22 could be built in the 300-350 lbs range maybe a few pounds less depending on the builder". Also, a market would exist by due to the series commitment to structure and organization of events. Much in the way that pro-sail made a market for the hobie 21and formula 40. Both are boats that would not have been built if not for the series.



As for around the bouys racing, it depends on:



the size of the course

the number of boats

the amount of wind

the quality of sailors

and as in real estate --- location, location, location.



Watching sailboat racing is like watching paint dry for most people. How many people went out to watch the Worrell?? Not many, most of us "watched" it online. How many people watch bouy's racing???? not many.



As for a 20ht beating a 22ht ---- each has its best format for racing. But day in day out a 22 would win just due to physics.



Steve

Steve,

You stated-



"As for a 20ht beating a 22ht ---- each has its best format for racing. But day in day out a 22 would win just due to physics"



I was speaking of real life results between the I-20 and SC22. However, I would like to point out a factor to consider-Human Limitations. At some point the boats can get so big and powerful, that smaller boats can win out around a bouy course.



I see that you have now proposed a new class, in addition to the F-22, that is the 22HT class. This is a step in the right direction, however there are limits.



I enjoy our debate. Are you serious about this 22 ft thing or is this meant to stir up lively debate, for which it has succeeded!

Kieth and Steve -



Having thought about how to lower the weight of the 22 a couple of points come to mind. Sail material like cuben fiber and graphX are lighter than other materials, carbon masts should be lighter but may break under the strain of the main sail and large spins. You may save 40lbs by going to a carbon mast but also could have to replace several before you get one thats strong enough to last. The beams on Carbon Copy have very thick walls to accomodate the stress of that tall mast. Autoclaved components save weight but cost. Marstrom will make a mast for around $6000 I think.



The crew weights of the 22 are 450 lbs max. I would rather have a crew of three than two on heavy air days. Theres room on the tramp especially considering that one or bothe will be out on the trap. This weekend I plan on taking 2 women out that weigh less than 250LBS. I want to see how the boat can be sailed by three. With the self tacking jib quick tacks can leave you on the low side. The concept of having the advantage of a 200lb man [me] handle the spin with some help from the third crew maybe beneficial or not.



One other point the 22 sail area is a max figure [Smyth makes a 280sqft main but the stock main is smaller] but in certain areas less sail area is better...



thom

The proposed series racing is for a new technology 22. The initial question was should the SC22 be allowed to compete.



Personally, I am divided on the issue but I do want input on the issue.



As for a new class, the intention is to incourage designers and builders bring their best to the table. Much in the way that the A class does. Actually the A class is the blueprint for this series when it comes to rules, regs, and operations.



Hopefully, before the end of July we will be able to finalize the remaining issues and announce the series, locations, builders etc.



As for Autoclaving, one designer has stated that would be the preferred way to build the boat/mast. From my understanding that designer is awaiting finalized quotes for production of the design.



As for crew weights and minimums that is TBD. But I do not think the CW will be less than 360lbs. This is due to the number of monohull sailors that have expressed an interest in a sponsored series.



Steve

I guess I don't understand why you would want to use 22 paramenters and exclude the original boat from competition. If the new designs ever come about [which is not definite] and they are faster then[not a definite] they will eventally push the original boats out of competition. But if they don't and a new hybrid develops between the original design and new innovations then everybody gains.



Who has the final word on this?



thom

Thom,



Those are my feelings exactly. Personnally I am not looking at excluding the sc22. I would rather have a hybrid boat develope. But, I believe that the builder of the boat will probably want to stay with its existing one design setup.



There are two other designs that are coming forward that as of yet are "paper-only" and untested but, promise better performance.



From a organizers perspective let everything that qualifies run and let the race course decide which is the better performer.



As to the desicision process that is up to the PRO and circuit chairman. Of those two postions I am neither.



Steve

Hi Steve

here are my thoughts after reading posts ,



The 22 is a great boat and should be inc espesially since no ht 22 yet exists if the 22 size is a must .



The other options for a Prosail type class are as suggested existing 20 ht designs , The CFR 20 does exist design by Morrelli with huge Smyth sailplan =huge main only and spin.



-The lightweight platform and huge sailplan insure that this type of design could only be sailed by heavier teams {your main requirement } as it reportedly flys a hull in 6 mph winds .

Think 2 are in existance, the designer could fill you in along with Randy on needed revisions and improvements ,part of every cat design developement .



-It is much more affordable, DOES EXIST , and would save design building sail plan time and developement costs , has plenty of room for sponsors logos on the main and spin.-is easily trailerable , and much more accessable and a familiar size to numerous existing competitive teams.



We would find a way to intergrate them into F-20 starts along with larger beam 20s , scored seperately in a 20 ht class or with a rating number at local events for practise and comparison purposes.-great fun



Carl

Steve-



Having spoke to a few builders as wel;l I have found the bottom line is feasibility? Can you make it and can you sell it? I remember when the Tornado guys voted down the changes that are in place today on the new boat. I said to several who said the decision was cast in stone that if you show them how much fun it is they will change their minds. In some ways this 22 concept sounds great but learn from the C Class experience. Several boats were made but few were actually made twice that I am aware of. All new concepts are doomed to fail if there isn't a yardstick to measure against. I am old enough to rmemeber the Delorean that was going to run the Corvette out of existence. Which one is here now? I have serious concerns about a 22 class being formed and progressing if you have to wait on these boats to be built, tested, and priced out less than a house. I'm serious about that price. Having sailed a 22 you are aware of the power that sail plan develops. Imagine building a prototype and the mast pushes the main beam through the hull or rips out the side tangs or forestay. Some things can not be tested in a computer. You may know this already but in case you aren't aware the 22 is an extension of the SC20 outside but inside it has 23 years approximately of R&D development behind it.



I spoke to a builder wannabe last year that measured my 20 and wanted to try to make a similar copy in graphite. he did start the project but gave up at Christmas. After spending in excess of $10k. The man was not prepared to start that project much less complete it. Thats the problem with builders they start a project realize specifics that they didn't anticipate and either run out of money or talent to solve the problem. Just because Roberts/Haberman or Boyer or Alter can do it doens't mean that somone else can because they have a computer. Basically I feel it requires alot of good luck to make these projects go to completion.



I remember when when the Hot Rod association was formed. Innovation to the stock cars started that sport. They had classes...apples vs apples or 51 Fords vs 51 Fords. No one had they money to design and make their own cars but they could modify their family cars to race on Sundays. Thats how I see the Formula 22 circuit evolving. Take whats there and race. If and when something new does come; drop it into the grease and see if it competes.



Also one other point; there aren't that many 22s around. I have only seen four besides mine. If there is going to be competition it had better be in the middle of the country so that all boats can get there in 2 days. I just came back from the Corsair nationals and some of those people came from the northwest to FWB. Cats don't have to be sailed in the ocean to show their abilities.



thom

Thom



On the point of feasibility, with sponsorship and the potential of prize money it becomes easier to amortize the cost of buying a boat.



As I stated above the formula 40 would never had existed if not for Prosail. The F40 is a huge expensive boat -- the F22 is (hopefully) going to be a less expensive yet as inspirational sailboat. Only time will tell but the sponsors, investors, officers and hopefully the sailors believe that the time has come for a semi-professional sailing circuit.



Steve

Steve-



Your point about sponsorship and prize money if well taken but in tis day of instant gratification; do you really think the money is going to keep coming in without some sign of success on the horizon. Say within a year. Catsailing is not Nascar... There are alot of places to put your money and make it work for you than on a relatively new concept to this next generation of catsailors. Unfortunately sailing is much more fun to do than watch.



Also is there a web site for this Formula 22 class?

thom