Are there any F16s in Michigan?

2 boats listed in Illinois. None in Michigan.
Frappr

There is another one in Ohio as well and we lost track of one Taipan in the general Michigan area. The last boat was the only one to be traded in for an I-17 and it immediately vanished. All I was told is that it would sit out its remaining days at some lodge and wasn't expected to be ever seen again. This stopped the F16 advancement in that area for a while. But now we are back with a vengeance ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Yeah, two boats, we almost have a fleet! Unfortunately, one will mostly be racing in Wisconsin and mine will probably not be demasted to travel from its beach site. I doubt we will see much of each other.

But maybe this could be a start, Mark will be introducing his boat to the racing crowd in Wisconsin and the beach I sail has 140-150 cats. Every time I see two people pushing a 400 pound cat up the beach, I wonder if they are going to have a heart attack. It's only made worse every year as more sand moves in and the trek gets longer. The introduction of a F16 could spark some interest in a light weight spinnaker cat that will certainly be easier to push up the beach. Weight was certainly a consideration when choosing the F16 as it was a workout to solo push the H16. So maybe some interest could come out of the introduction of these two boats. We will see.

Jamie

The one Taipan 4.9 w/ spinnaker that was in CRAM (Catamaran Racing Assoc. of Michigan) was traded in for a Nacra F17. We never saw the Taipan (or any other F16-type boat) again. When Jerry made the trade, he said the F17 is a much better single-handed boat, mostly because it was designed as a single-handed boat and the processes of putting up and taking down the spinnaker are well thought out, knowing you only have two hands to do what needs to be done. This includes the balanced and self-centering steering system, the single line spinnaker halyard/retreival system, the access to rotation and downhaul lines, all designed to help the single-handed skipper.

Seven new F17s were sold by the Michigan Nacra dealer this year, and the fleet is having a great time with the F17. At last weekend's regatta, the F17 Fleet in CRAM was 2/3 of all registered boats.

There is lots of talk about the F17 Fleet performance at the Nacra F18 World Championships, where the F17 fleet started 5 minutes after the F18 Fleet and the lead boats of the F17s were working their way through the F18 Fleet and finishing consistently in the top 5 of the F18 fleet! Most surprised were the F18 World Champions from Holland. They had not seen the F17, a completely different boat than the N17 marketed in Europe. And this happened before Matt Struble entered the F17 Fleet. This year, Matt won the first 13 races. He flipped his boat in the 14th race and recovered to finish 4th. He won the only other race this year, now having 14 1st place finishes in 15 races. I wonder what would have happened if Matt had competed at last year's Championships. He is much faster than last year's Champion so far this year.

So Michigan racers picked the Nacra F17 and all involved believe they made the right choice.

I17-R is a good choice for single handing in MI. Good fleets, good sailors. I certainly understand the reasoning for that particular switch of boats.

However, the reasons listed for the Taipan not being a good design for single handing are applicable to that single boat's layout, not the layout of the Taipan in general. The F16 Taipans (as other F16s do) have those features (except maybe the self centering steering - which is interesting and may require some research). Just for the record <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Why were I17-Rs at the Nacra F18 World Championships? Although, it is a very impressive finish.

Why I-17R? I check with the Nacra web page http://nacra.us/
only F17 was listed. Maybe a little more info on the boat would help ( F17) Anyway, CatFight VII the F16s have been moved with the F17s to the low portsmouth spinnaker fleet. This would be a great event to see both boats in action against F18s, Nacra 20s & Tornados. Per the latest Cat Fight news letter ( #3 )
They were racing in the Nacra F17 North American Championship.

Ted

My bad on missing the name change. Is the design part of a box rule class now open to other manufacturers ("F" usually means formula, the exception would be Farrier Tri's)? or is it a name change only (same rig, sail area, weight, etc.)? Maybe they changed the name to differentiate it from the Austrailian version of the I-17 or the European version of the I-17 or the old American version of the I-17.

They are fine boats - there is one at my club (2005 model, I believe). He was really looking forward to the Performance Mid-Winters a few months ago and racing in OD class.

I get the Worlds thing now. Perfect sense that they'd hold them together, I just read it wrong. Must have been a very good sailor b/c Portsmouth has the F18 (62.4) a good bit quicker than the F17 (66.7), plus the 5 minutes (or more if not rolling starts) lag in starting time. That is a lot of ground to make up in World-class competition. Kudos to the effort. MI has always produced a lot of good sailors.

I personally won't make Catfight, but it looks to be another banner year. Best of luck.

At the moment there's no Formula 17 Class, so I guess its ok to use the F to designate a boat model. The Nacra 17 is mainly sold in Europe & North America. The European Nacra is a N-17 smaller main & aluminum mast. The NA version is sold with a larger main & 30' carbon mast. The F17 class rules like the Formula 18 class rules allow two different spinnakers base on weight of the crew. The Austrailian version of the 17 has nothing in common with the N17 or F17. Not the same hulls, mast,or sails
Have a great sailing season <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Ted

Jamie
Could you explain how this happens

Your report is the second mention of this catamaran club with 150 boats on the beach and nobody seems to go racing.

You say...
It sounds like it takes an act of god to drop the stick and rig up to go racing.

What's going on... Is the club just filled with social casual sailors?

Take Care
Mark Schneider

I just can't see the N17r or F17 (whatever) taking off. I don't know specifically why I think that, but I do. Which has more chance f16 or f17?
The reason I ask is that I will be in mich in 1.5 years and don't think i will stick with the 6.0 that long.

Hang on for a minute there !

When Jerry switched the F17 didn't even exist yet. This quote is of Jerry is getting better by the year, I do think we must put it in the right perspective.

I recall that Jerry switched mainly because the Nacra 17's had good fleet racing going on in the Michigan area while the F16's/Taipans did not. I fully support him in that decision and I also did back then. I do not recall he switched because of the reasons you write down. I think alot gets invented or added to Jerries quote.

The reasons you state about the nacra systems I find really funny. The F16's are (true) formula boats, we actively encourage sailors to modify everything to personal preference. If Jerry didn't like a particular system then he could and should have changed it.





And you guys are indeed having great net/forum promotion with it. CRAM is doing very well and it is very nice to see the owners being very happy with their new boats. I'm not going to talk down that. I always say publically that Nacra 17 is strong in the Michigan area, with very good fleet racing. Because that is true.






You had extremely light winds or some F18 sailors need some proper sail training, because there is no way that the nacra 17 boat is 5 minutes faster then the modern F18's in a normal 30 to 45 minutes bouy race. Especially not when teh nacra 17's had to work their way through a zone of dirty air when passing the fleet.






The only crew from Ned were Gunnar Larsen and his girlfriend Lisa, they never were World Champions.

Source :

1st WC F18 (2000) : http://www.f18-international.org/2000wc.htm
2nd WC F18 (2001) : http://www.f18-international.org/2001wc.htm
3rd WC F18 (2002) : http://www.f18-international.org/2002wc.htm
4th WC F18 (2003) : http://www.f18-international.org/koksijde_2003.htm
5th WC F18 (2004) : http://www.f18-international.org/puntala_2004.htm
6th WC F18 (2005) : http://www.f18-international.org/2005goldf.htm

Together with his brother Sacha Larsen, Gunnar was 20th at the last F18 WC and 7th Dutch team from the top. His current F18 ranking is 94 (taken over results in 2005). I don't think Lisa is even listed.

Source : http://www.f18-international.org/erl_listbyname.htm

His last Dutch F18 championship participation was in 2003. I don't think he sailed any championship with Lisa as crew before this Nacra F18 event. Still they appeared to dominate the Nacra F18 world championship with only Alex and Nigel staying close.

Source : http://www.nacraclass.com/PRW05/Results%20Day%205.htm


I'm sorry, no disrespect intended to any individual sailor, they are all good sailors, but the Dutch team was no where near being the F18 world champions. And even though they are currently the NACRA F18 world champions I think we would do well to realize how much deeper the skill level truly is of the many European teams that didn't participate in this event.





And that is very good because the EU I-17 is one slow boat. It has the questionable honour to be the only spinnaker equipped boat to be thrown in with the Hobie 16 / Prindle 16 open class fleets.





Is this proof of Matt ability to sail or the nacra 17 superiority ?




Very good, best of luck to your guys. Honestly.

On a different level however, on class building, I say your are about 4 continents and over 100 boats short. Growth rate is at best 1/4 of ours. I would love to race you guys in this arena as well, makes for a fun challenge I think. But you need to do better then you are doing now and I say that without any emotion. For me, class building is a game of strategy and I now got all the pieces of this chessboard were I want them. A few more years and the game will have been played and the outcome will be known. You'll have to enter the game now or it is just a matter of time.

Therefor I invite you guys to provide us with a challenge. I'm looking forward to that.

Wouter

Ahhh, that is just inflated BS. It is nothing more then a rubbery connection between tiller and the rudder arms. All Taipans had a similar setup even before the nacra-17's invented the "self centering steering". I don't recall with what system Jerry's boat was fitted. It seems to be hard to convince US builders and dealors of the experience we gained in other area's of the world. I don't really understand why that it. For some reason they always feel that they know better themselfs.

Additionally these rubbery connections are a very easy modification. You can buy standard fittings from Ronstan and Riley that do the same trick. I have it myself as it comes standard with all AHPC rudder stocks from 2001 onwards. I think it was optional before that time.

The only difference between us using it and the Nacra boys is that we don't think up a fancy name and story around it.

Phill Brander and a handful of others are using different systems, I never switched to these as my boat tracks fine with the rubber connections as it is. For some reason VWM decided against using these connections, but the European Blades have them and the reports here are that the boat track extremely well. We have one F16 sailor here who can only use one arm while sailing and so he has to drop the tiller extension alot. His comments were that the boat tracks beautifully through any tack and gibe. he can just lay down the tiller after initiating the manouvre and the boat will continue through the curve on its own without any deviation.

Wouter

Wouter,

do you have a link or more information about those "rubber thingies"?

Sorry for sidetracking..

Okay, I have to admit to one thing here.

I refuse to talk about the F17 in earnest as I feel it is a BS name. It is nothing more then the old Single Manufacturer One Design (SMOD) I-17R with an added slightly bigger spinnaker for heavy weight skippers. Spi luff length is still the same though so area is pretty unimportant anyway. The new F17 name is a direct attempt to confuse, by blurring the borderlines between SMOD and (true) formula. The marketing deparment knows very well that SMOD is out of fashion.

It is neither a formula class in any way, nor is it a new class. Personally I think it to be the school example of marketing BS. And I'm not at all ashamed to say this.

And it gets even better still. The F17 name is not even used anywhere outside of the USA. In Europe they changed the name to Nacra 17.

Source : http://www.nacra.com.au/inter17.htm


How many different names does this boat have right now ? 6 or 7 ?

Inter-17 (Aus), Inter-17 (EU), Inter-17R (USA), Inter-17XL (EU), Nacra F17 (USA), F17 (USA), Nacra 17 (EU).

And they all use the same platform in the way of design and dimensions. The Aussies are only building them lighter with Kevlar and Carbon fibres.

Currently I count 4 different rigs, this is the main difference between the models anyway. 5 different rigs if you count the heavy skipper entlarged F17 spinnaker as a seperate rig.

The European Importer looks like he is going to add another seperate design to the market place. Go to

http://www.nacraeurope.com/nacra17.php

and look at the specs.

It has a smaller mainsail area then the US I-17R (= F17) and it uses the larger F17 spi size as standard and it looks like it will be using the old alu mast. On the other hand both its mainsail and spi are larger then former I-17 (EU). Additionally this version is still not comparable to the Hobie Fx-one, so still has no real shot at becoming a true formula boat.

Personally I feel the US I17 (I-17R, F17) is a pretty decent boat, but the music chairs syndrome with the different names and builds is bordering on rediculous now.

Take my advice on this guys. This is not the way to build a succesful (international) class. Choose one particular setup, stick to that and make it work internationally. Otherwise the class is too fragmented by far and you will far to sensitive to direct competition.


Wouter

http://www.ronstan.com/marine/range.asp?RnID=075

RF 3133 Urethane Universal Joint

In the upper left corner you'll an entlarged view of it.


However I really do advice the Riley (Yacht Fittings) version of this universal joint. The rubber joint is the same but is cleating mechanism is just way better. Sadly Riley doesn't sell direct to private persons. But I do know a few agents that have them.

www.catamaranparts.nl sell thems for example. I got mine through a certain mutual Australian friend.

Wouter

Define the parameters for that question.

Internationally or outside of Michigan ? F16 all the way. More builders, bigger numbers, events on all continents. These will garantee future F16 growth and succes.

Michigan and surrounding area, I-17R (or whatever its new name is) will remain strong for a while. They have a very good fleet there and it will take more time before the encirclement is complete and the F16 can go head to head with them locally as a class. In the way of basic design (personal preference and mods aside) the Blade F16 has the egde. There is no doubt in my mind of that. But it won't be easy to beat the Michigan I-17R skippers, you will have to bring some skills to do that.





Honestly, if you highly value strong local class racing then the choice is simple. I-17R. If you value other things like truly lightweightness, mixed 1-up 2-up sailing, continued development and 3rd supplier components then the choice pretty much points to F16's.

But indeed, F16 is a youngly in the great lakes area and it needs to grow there in the coming years.

Wouter

Ahh, thank you Wouter.

The "self centering steering" threw me off. It's just a flexible joint replacing the universal joint, not a "self steering" mechanism. I visualized a self steering mechanism holding the rudders at the angle you let go of the tiller.
Looks just like a smaller version of the flexible joint I have on my windsurfer.

I'm not inventing anything...these are the words Jerry told me, in person, on the beach after sailing the F17.



We don't hold a candle to what you do.



They are current Nacra F18 World Champions, which you very well know. I neither said or implied anything different. I I was saying something different, I would have said the "Formula 18 World Champions", because that is what you are talking about. I am talking about F18 World Champions. Only Nacra makes the F18, which happens to be a Formula 18, as is the Tiger, Cirrus, etc.



Matt's capability, of course! The F17 performance speaks for itself, performing so well with sailors that are not of Matt's obvious capability.



I only know about the boats you count from this area, which we never see compete. As for my count, these are the people racing F17. Different methods of counting, however, I am delighted with local growth because that is what I experience, boats on the starting line. It is sort of like those 150 boats on the beach outside Chicago, which sounds like a great fleet. But they don't ever seem to make it into the water for a race. Addmittedly, I care about racing. The F17 was designed for single-handed racing and does that job very well.

Ahhh, come on ! You can't be serious about this.

You specifically wrote and I QUOTE :




And now you are claiming that the rest of the world should just immediately recognize that this specifically refers to this one-time-20-boats Nacra F18 One-design World Championship and not to the REAL F18 class world championship ?

Is the nacra class now refering officially to these sailors as the "F18 world champions" ?

I guess that is one way of producing "winning" results.






Now you just sound like that guy I met in the alleyway last night; the one who tried to sell me a genuine "Rolecs" watch.


I noticed that the Nacra F18 class has not renewed their ISAF status this year. I guess these sailors will now remain THE ultimate F18 world championships till the end of time; by virtue of having won all F18 championships that were ever held. (Afterall the infusion is not an F18 right ?)

Wouter