Lets say you happened to win your area Qualifier and were going to the Alter Cup next spring. What would you consider the ideal crew weight? Wouter, don't be shy. This is not a question of "is a F16 right for me at this weight," but ... if you were going to a major one week event, what would you consider ideal, and what range would you accept.
I am 175 pounds, and sail an A Cat, so I am familiar with the wing mast.
Ken

Hello Ken,

How are you, it has been a while since ...


I would consider 135-145 kg ideal = 300-320 lbs depending a little bit on the expected winds at the venue. Certainly not less then that.

I PERSONALLY would accept the range between 120 kg and 160 kg = 265 - 350 lbs

I seem to be very willing to sail heavy as it is my opinion that it is far better to have a heavier but skilled and agressive crew then a lightweight timid crew. Racing F16's hard in anything over 10 knots can be quite demanding. Both physically and mentally/technically. Quick hoists, extremely late drops amidst a flock of boats and a crew that is working the main upwind and the spinnaker downwind. Continiously working the sheets will wear one down so too the pressure and all the stuff that is going on. I therefor favour the heavier and stronger sailor of the team as crew and I don not favour teams whose major advantage is being lightweight.

Now I have to say that these numbers are for the Blade F16 design specifically and when the sails can be cut to suit the weight.

But as I understand it the Alter Cup boats must all use the same set of sails and so it dependent on what "average" crew weight is taken for the Alter cup sails. I don't know which "setup" is chosen. I do think it would be smart for VWM to decide on "average = 150 kg". It is always more easy to depower a rig.

I also do not think that the Blade F16 favours featherweight crews unless the sails are cut specifically for those weights. I really do believe that too many people believe F16 = favouring featherweights. This is really less so then what may appear at first glance.

If you are racing these boats hard in pretty much medium conditions and stronger then sailing these boats can be quite a sport. In wisper sailing the lightest crews will of course always be favoured.

There are several reports of 160-170 kg crews feeling very nimble on these boats. For some reason the Blade doesn't appear to be very sensitive to crew weight; certainly not in the magnitude as the Taipan is.

Ken, you are 80 kg's. Personally I would focus completely on finding a crew with good spinnaker experience (either as crew or skipper) and take the weight that comes with it. I really do believe that fast hoists and drops, good coordination and continious trimming are key aspects on these boats. Far more then being 10 kg lighter or heavier. If you don't thoroughly know what you are doing then you can easily throw tens of seconds out the door and it will be very difficult to win those back on better boat speed because you happen to be lighter then the rest. There is alot to do on board and therefor skilled crews are heavily favoured over lightweight crews.

Wouter, What about options as a solo platform for a big guy of 103kg! Thanks... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The F16 uni is a great platform for a big guy--plenty of power is possible since you can custom set up your mast and sail.

The secret to all these questions really is : have the sails cut to suit your weight.

Personally I'm a little cheap and I have only one mainsail that was optimized for 150 kg's. Doublehanded I sail between 145 and 150 kg.

Halve the time I sail and race singlehanded at 87 kg (190 lbs); I use the 150 kg mainsail then and the controls do allow me to depower the rig sufficiently. I'm very comfortable with this sail even though I know that I could be a little faster with a specilized singlehander sail. But I don't really feel I need it as in the really serious races I only sail doublehanded. In my club races I sail often singlehanded and here depowering doesn't hurt me too much at all. I sail a Taipan F16 myself.

Last weekend a fellow club member sailed his Blade F16 solo in over 14 knots of wind and his comments were: "derotating the mast a little, some more downhaul and letting a little mainsheet out was enough to fine tune the boat to comfortable singlehanded sailing. He is 72 kg himself 159 lbs and he uses a doublehanded mainsail as well (I think his is cut for 135 kg combined crew weight). So we are both depowering to the same extend when we are singlehanding.

Back to your case. At 103 kg it only becomes more easy. You have to depower less if you get a standard mainsail.

In the way of flotation (platform and hulls) I think either platform will be fine; if not well suited to your weight. It is my personal conviction that the F16's become the prefered singlehanders when going up to your crew weight. The hulls of commericially available A-cats are really designed around a difference average crewweight about 80 kg or so. When you reach 100 kg skipper weight you are going to notice this difference. The F16's are of course designed for higher (combined) average crew weights and therefor will not at all sink in to deep when sailed heavy as a solo skipper. Other singlehander classes force you to buy standard sails that are optimized around 80 kg as well. Here we must remember that it is always alot more easy to depower a sail then it is to power it up. F16's allow custom sails by any sailmaker and standard sails are cut for a heavier weight then you are now. So you can hardly go wrong there. With a One-Design "one-size-fits-all" mainsail optimized around 80 kg you'll always be lacking power in a competitive sense.

Personally I won't think twice about solo sailing a F16 at 103 kg. I think it to be the better class for those heavy solo sailors. If you want to take somebody along now and then then choose the Blade or Stealth as those are the most weight acceptant of the F16's.

Wouter

Flying Cat,
If you are serious I will put my personal bias asside and tell you , you have a choice, Blade, Taipan and Stealth.
It really is just a case of choosing a weapon.
Please make that choice and get involved.
You won't look back.
Regards
Phill

Dang! It seems like I am always going off on tangents to thread topics.. Sorry again.

Wouter, you mention having a mainsail cut (or a whole wardrobe cut) to your crew weight. Is there an empiric way to do this, or is it all guesswork and based on the sailmakers experience?

Ken may really just be asking about the Alter Cup F16s.

Yes, I know read my FIRST posting again. My second posting was a reply to flyingcat.

Wouter

The singlehander is minus jib right? At 103kg. I was concerned to be underpowered upwind and overpowered downwind. Is that not the case? Thanks <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks




Yes, the singlehander is only the mainsail + spinnaker





You must note that the F16 has 15 sq. mtr. (161 sq. ft) mainsail area. Compare this to the following boats :

A-cat = 13.94 sq. mtr. = 150 sq ft.
FX-one = 14.90 sq. mtr. = 160 sq. ft
Hobie 17 = 14.76 sq. mtr. = 159 sq.ft.
Mastrom M18 = 15.13 sq. mtr. = 163 sq. ft.
EU I-17 = 13.68 sq. mtr = 147 sq.ft
US I-17R = 16.44 sq. mtr. = 176 sq. ft.

F18 = 17.0 sq. mtr. = 183 sq. ft.

So the mainsail area of the F16's is level with the area of these boats, with the exception of the US I-17R, but this boat has a rather big mainsail area. And eventually you will have to pull all that area into shape by your mainsheet. But that is a different topic.

Anyway on this data I would certainly not call the F16's underpowered, afterall we are more then a bit lighter then all the others as well with the exception of the A-cat and M18.

With a spinnaker a singlehanded sailor is almost always overpowered downwind, irrespectably whether you sail a FX-one or F16. But this is not a issue as you can always sail as deep as you like and make better VMG as a result. And that is the name of the game isn't it ? Making the best VMG possible ?

Personally I feel skippers weighting up to 150 kg will not have to worry about being underpowered on the F16's. Think of it in this way. If the F16 can be fully powered up at 10 knots wind with a doublehanded crew of 150 kg (and sails cut to reflect that) why should any singlehanded skipper fear being underpowered (and his sails cut to his weight) ?

The basic specs of the F16 are sufficient and the formula class rules allow you full freedom to optimize you individual boat to sit your framework.

As I said earlier, several F16 sailors and I myself (all in the range 70 to 95 kg) simply use our standard doublehanded mainsails (cut for optimal performance when 140 - 150 kg) for singlehanding and feel perfect fine with it. You at 103 kg are still way below 140-150 kg and therefor will be fine with a standard cut sail.

Wouter