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Rake/Tiller-Tug question? #79073
07/04/06 09:32 AM
07/04/06 09:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Captain_Dave Offline OP
enthusiast
Captain_Dave  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Hello,

I am currently running an "old style" H16 (older mast and rudder setup). I have the new style (shorter) shrouds and I am hoping to hear from experienced sailors on which chain-plate hole to use on the side-stays in order to best manage the tiller-tug issue.

So Far, I am pinned at the third hole from the top and I find the tiller-tug excessive enough to take the fun out sailing after about one hand-cramping hour.

Since I must trailer my boat, and setup at a boat launch, I rarely have the luxury of simply going back to the beach to re-rigg the boat. This is why I`d rather "just ask".



Any advice?

Thanks,

Dave

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Rake/Tiller-Tug question? [Re: Captain_Dave] #79074
07/04/06 10:25 AM
07/04/06 10:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 221
North Carolina
hrtsailor Offline
enthusiast
hrtsailor  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 221
North Carolina
Dave,

I am not sure about the mast rake vs. tug (weather helm) on an H-16 but have always understood that the rudder rake will have a big effect on it. It can be adjusted by setscrews in the rudder casings and by then adjusting the latch that locks down the rudders.

Generally, as you rake a mast back it moves the center of effort on the sail further aft. In a centerboard boat, the center of resistance is near the board so the C of E and the C of R make a turning moment trying to turn the boat into the wind (as long as the C of E is aft of the C of R). When the C of E is foward of the C of R, the boat wants to turn downwind, a lee helm, and a dangerous boat. I don't know how to judge the center of resistance on an H-16 which uses the hulls alone to prevent side slip. I imagine weight balance would affect it. I also sail a catboat which is a monohull which is notorious for strong weather helm. In that boat it is possible to adjust weather helm by adjusting the angle of the centerboard which changes location of the C of E.

Howard

Re: Rake/Tiller-Tug question? [Re: hrtsailor] #79075
07/04/06 10:42 AM
07/04/06 10:42 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Captain_Dave Offline OP
enthusiast
Captain_Dave  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Thanks Howard,

The mast rake certainly does affect tiller-tug. However, the older H16 casts do not have a set screw to rake the rudders under the boat. Therefore, all adjustments have to made with the mast in order to reduce the pull at the helm. Eventually, I`ll either upgrade the entire rudder system, or re-drill the rudders while retro-fitting a "set screw" setup myself. In the meantime, figuring out which holes to use on the side-stay chain-plates are my best bet.

Dave

Re: Rake/Tiller-Tug question? [Re: Captain_Dave] #79076
07/04/06 10:56 PM
07/04/06 10:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 152
Central Texas
yoh Offline
member
yoh  Offline
member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 152
Central Texas
Hi Captain, A prescribed setup for the "right" hole on the chain plate is not possible - too different are mainsheet systems, tolerances and other factors (racing vs. recreational sailing).
In a way you already answered your question. You have created a good amount of mast rake resulting in unreasonable wetherhelm - you have described what could be done to compensate for it (rudder rake adjustment).
The limit for mast rake is pretty much when upper und lower mainsheet block touch. This is a setup that you could adjust anywhere (e.g. in your driveway on a still day). The rudder rake adjustment is more difficult - especially on a non-adjustable casting. You mentioned the re-drilling option (difficult since there is a lot of guess work and you have only one chance to get it right) or the upgrade to an adjustable casting ($$$)

Patrick


Patrick, Hobie 16 '85
Re: Rake/Tiller-Tug question? [Re: yoh] #79077
07/04/06 11:34 PM
07/04/06 11:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi...
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi...
Quote
You mentioned the re-drilling option (difficult since there is a lot of guess work and you have only one chance to get it right) or the upgrade to an adjustable casting ($$$)
Find someone that's already gone through finding the right place to drill the rudder and see if you can use their rudder as a pattern for yours.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Rake/Tiller-Tug question? [Re: hobie1616] #79078
07/05/06 07:54 AM
07/05/06 07:54 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
enthusiast
pbisesi  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
Dave: Hobie sells a retrofit kit to adjust your rudder rake.
(or at least the did)
You can change the feel some with the mast rake, but not enough to make the weather helm go away. I cut out the fixed stud on the upper casting and machined out the hole and then used a 5/16" ss nut and bolt as a way to rake the rudders on my old 14. It worked well. Drilling the rudders is also critical.We have a couple of guys with jigs around here that get a lot of business as people pick up new boats.
As was mentioned if someone has a boat with adjustable castings and are happy with thier helm you can use that as a starting point. I sailed an old boat last summer without the adjustable casting and an old set of lexan rudders. I don't know how we used to do that. The boat feels terrible. You have to put your weight way back and sheet out just to make the boat go without cavitation.


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Rake/Tiller-Tug question? [Re: pbisesi] #79079
07/05/06 09:16 AM
07/05/06 09:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 32
Midland
Mac05 Offline
newbie
Mac05  Offline
newbie

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 32
Midland
Hi Dave - Mac here. Come over and we can put my adjustable rudder set up on your boat, get a comfortable rake/helm feel, measure off a reference point, and use that to redrill your rudders.

See you on Simcoe!

Re: Rake/Tiller-Tug question? [Re: Mac05] #79080
07/06/06 10:48 AM
07/06/06 10:48 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Captain_Dave Offline OP
enthusiast
Captain_Dave  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Thanks guys.



Dave

Re: Rake/Tiller-Tug question? [Re: Captain_Dave] #79081
07/17/06 12:37 AM
07/17/06 12:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline
addict
Jeff Peterson  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Why not stick with the original length on the shrouds and forestay? When I need new wires, I just have the sail shop custom make new ones. The price might even be cheaper than Hobie's new parts. Mine were. And it was a heavier wire.
Of course, if you want the extra rake...


Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN

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