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Re: Push-up luff- [Re: ejpoulsen] #80301
10/23/06 08:35 PM
10/23/06 08:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 196
Arkansas, USA
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CaptainKirt Offline
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Eric-
I agree with you- Love the "no halyard" simplicity of my Taipan and Auscat "A" (and the "A" mast is even taller!). <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I have even raised mine on the water! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Remember, however, we do not have "rope" in the luff!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> We have stiff tubing! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Ullman, Ashby, etc. can make/modify your sail for this type of raising- just specify that you want a luff like most of the "A" cats use. AHPC/Goodalls's can supply the tubing if you want. Trying to "cram" the rope luff up the track won't work! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> (One of my used Taipan sails has a rope luff- for my cat rig mast- and you have to use a halyard if you have a rope luff- Of course Bobcat might be able to get his frozen rope luff up by pushing! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />).
Some pointers I have found for this technique to supplement Eric's great description- Put non-skid on top of the front beam to either side of the mast. I grab the batten caps between my fingers and lift- if the sail is slippery hold the last hoist up with one hand under the "top" cap while grabbing under the next "cap" with your other hand. I find I can lift one batten cap up enough to get the next one inside the track. Make sure your rubber "plug" under the hook is tight, the hook is centered and leaning slightly forward. If the sail gets too tight to lift the last little bit by hand you take your tiller stick off and push up under the highest batten cap you can reach (first push up some slack from the bottom)- this has always worked for me to either hook (damm "mud-dobbers" love to nest in the top of my mast!) or unhook. If you have doubts about how long a sail with a luff like this will last, my original 1997 "push'up" luff Goodall is still sailed on!
Oh yeah- Do NOT roll the tubing luff mainsails up too tight- you will crack/break the tubing. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Happy pushing!
Kirt


Kirt Simmons
Taipan, Flyer
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Re: Push-up luff- [Re: CaptainKirt] #80302
10/24/06 12:42 AM
10/24/06 12:42 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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Central California
Kirt--great tip about the batten caps; that's a must.

I will say that my Ashby main is made of a softer material and smaller luff "rope" so it is a little harder to push up than my Goodall main. But it's still no problem.


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: Push-up luff- [Re: ejpoulsen] #80303
10/24/06 06:26 AM
10/24/06 06:26 AM

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Hi all,

my Main is Ashby push up, as was mentioned not the easiest to push up but using tiller extension pushed against batten pocket end for last 2ft.works OK, very important to get your rubber block right under the headboard shackle.

From the sounds of things all raising systems have their problems. Maybe we need some of the stuff that they keep trying to sell in the SPAM emails <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Regards Gary. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Push-up luff- [Re: ] #80304
10/24/06 07:03 AM
10/24/06 07:03 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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What is the advantage of having a "push up" setup vs. a turning block at the masthead and a 2mm spectra line?

I have only sailed boats with halyards, and they have worked well. Not much added weight either.
Halyard has slid out of the turning block a couple of times on our Marstrøm mast, but it's no big problem.

Re: Push-up luff- [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #80305
10/24/06 10:22 AM
10/24/06 10:22 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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Quote
What is the advantage of having a "push up" setup vs. a turning block at the masthead and a 2mm spectra line?


For me, simplicity--fewer lines floating around the better. And overall it is just as easy for me to push the sail up as to pull it up. Weight savings is negligible


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: Push-up luff- [Re: ejpoulsen] #80306
10/31/06 01:45 PM
10/31/06 01:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 371
Michigan, USA
sparky Offline
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Quote
Weight savings is negligible


Yes, a small weight savings, but look WHERE you are saving the weight. The weight of the casting at the top of the mast to support the block up there (the A Class masts just have a foam plug at the top of the mast and something for the ring to hook onto), the halyard all along the mast, and a block at the bottom. The most important place to save weight is aloft...and the support structure at the top of the mast for that halyard is a good place to save weight, even if you have to add it back to the plaform to meet minimum weight.

In cars, we used to say that it was worth it to pay $1/lb. saved, $10/lb. saved of unsprung mass, and $100/lb. for reciprocating mass. In sailing, think of weight aloft as the place you want to spend the most for weight savings. Lighter weight sail materials is always good, sometimes at the expense of durability. A lot depends on how much you sail and how often you buy a new Mainsail.


Les Gallagher
Re: Push-up luff- [Re: sparky] #80307
10/31/06 02:08 PM
10/31/06 02:08 PM

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But the F16 rules have a tip weight limitation. So if you remove all that stuff you will have to put a corrector weight up there anyhow.

Re: Push-up luff- [Re: ] #80308
10/31/06 02:41 PM
10/31/06 02:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 371
Michigan, USA
sparky Offline
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Quote
But the F16 rules have a tip weight limitation. So if you remove all that stuff you will have to put a corrector weight up there anyhow.


Are the current masts at the required tip weight, or is there some room to reduce weight?


Les Gallagher
Re: Push-up luff- [Re: sparky] #80309
10/31/06 03:14 PM
10/31/06 03:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

The weight of the casting at the top of the mast to support the block up there (the A Class masts just have a foam plug at the top of the mast and something for the ring to hook onto), the halyard all along the mast, and a block at the bottom. The most important place to save weight is aloft...and the support structure at the top of the mast for that halyard is a good place to save weight, even if you have to add it back to the plaform to meet minimum weight.



Actually the F16's do not have any support structure up the mast for the halyard. All the Taipan and Blade masts have a foam block up there just like the A's. So no weight lost there. What we do have is a single standup block that has been blind riveted inside the sailtrack. weight = 20 grams or less (0.6 oz). The halyard is typically a 4 mm dyneema line = 13 grams per meter. In total 8.5 mtr is going up the mast the other 8 mtr is in the tramp pocket while sailing. 8.5 mtr weights 100 grams in total or 3 oz. Of course the other 8 mtr in the pocket will also weight about 100 grams.

But the total weight added to the mast while sailing will be 120 grams or 1/4 lbs. So I'm afraid that the halyard is not the best place to save weight on the mast. Currently that is the proctor spreader arms. Next in line is the mainsail itself. F16 does allow cuben fibre and kevlar to be used in the mainsail. Several mainsails still use fibre rods as battens over foam battens, another 500 grams (1 lbs) weight savings.

But any true weight savings are to be found in the mast material itself. If you go for a carbon mast then that will garantee you a weight savings aloft of no less then 4 kg (8 lbs). But there is a price tack attached.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/31/06 03:16 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Push-up luff- [Re: sparky] #80310
10/31/06 03:18 PM
10/31/06 03:18 PM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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The alu F16 masts do have some margin there. You can remove some weight and not violate the tipweight ruling. You certainly won't violate it by removing the halyard block and halyard.

Carbon mast are at the minimum tipweight and must be careful not to go under it. We set the tip weight somewhere between the two extremes to improve equality but still allow some development. So you could build carbon masts lighter and the alu mast could loose some more tipweight (lighter spreaders, dyform wires etc).

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/31/06 03:22 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Push-up luff- [Re: Wouter] #80311
10/31/06 03:31 PM
10/31/06 03:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 371
Michigan, USA
sparky Offline
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Wouter,

What is the thinking behind the tipweight requirement?


Les Gallagher
Re: Push-up luff- [Re: sparky] #80312
10/31/06 04:26 PM
10/31/06 04:26 PM
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Posts: 1,449
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phill Offline

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Les,
The idea behind the tip weight rule was to help allow the aluminium masts remain competative with carbon masts. Without this rule it was feared that everyone would have to use the much more expenive carbon masts to be competative.

We have other rules like not being able to glue beams to hulls to allow aluminium beams a more equal footing to carbon beams as the real benefits from carbon come when they are glued to the hulls.
So basically it is all about letting people with smaller budgets get a fair shot at competing with people with large budgets for their sailing.
So people who want to spend the big dollars and get the cool stuff can but the advantage they will realise on the race course is limited.

We believe that items like these in our class rules will help make the F16 class available to a wider range of sailors.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Push-up luff- [Re: phill] #80313
10/31/06 05:27 PM
10/31/06 05:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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We believe that items like these in our class rules will help make the F16 class available to a wider range of sailors. WHILE STILL ALLOWING SOME DEVELOPMENT.

It was explicitely decided to not ban development altogether, but midly limit it and slow it down to a pace that would improve the class over time but not end up in a spending match.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/31/06 05:28 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Picture of the the F16 mast tops [Re: Wouter] #80314
11/02/06 08:49 AM
11/02/06 08:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Sparky,

Here you can see how similar the F16 mast top with the A-cat mast top.

[Linked Image]

Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 11/02/06 08:50 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Picture of the the F16 mast tops [Re: Wouter] #80315
11/02/06 12:33 PM
11/02/06 12:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 371
Michigan, USA
sparky Offline
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Do you have a picture of the halyard ring arrangement?

Does the halyard feed to the pulley inside the hook?


Les Gallagher
Re: Picture of the the F16 mast tops [Re: sparky] #80316
11/02/06 02:04 PM
11/02/06 02:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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go and take a look at :

http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/ahpc_taipan_49_how_to_rig.html

Some attach the halyard between the shackle and sail. I just tie is of to the top of the ring. Both seem to work well enough.

Halyard runs insider the sailtrack and runs pass the hook fitting to one side after it has made the turn around the block.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Picture of the the F16 mast tops [Re: Wouter] #80317
11/02/06 06:05 PM
11/02/06 06:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 371
Michigan, USA
sparky Offline
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It appears on that Taipan site that there is no halyard, just a ring at the top of the main like my A-Class.


Les Gallagher
Re: Picture of the the F16 mast tops [Re: sparky] #80318
11/11/06 04:08 PM
11/11/06 04:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Robi  Offline
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OK bringing this back as I finally downloaded my pictures off the camera. Here is how I tie my spin pole to the spin bridles.

Attached Files
89987-DSC03695.JPG (1211 downloads)
Re: Picture of the the F16 mast tops [Re: Robi] #80319
11/11/06 04:09 PM
11/11/06 04:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Robi  Offline
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St Petersburg FL
Looped around

Attached Files
89988-DSC03696.JPG (574 downloads)
Re: Picture of the the F16 mast tops [Re: Robi] #80320
11/11/06 04:09 PM
11/11/06 04:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Robi  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Square notted and loaded.

Attached Files
89990-DSC03697.JPG (591 downloads)
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