Depends on the person (and on the wind conditions at the time). What turns one person on might scare somebody else away.

Everybody,


I'm feel compelled to inform a few of us here that myths, no matter how often repeated, are still not truths.

While some builders will ask 1500 US$ for a pair of daggerboards (marstrom ?) the F16 builders most definately do not ! At least my own AHPC daggerboards were 350 Euro's for the pair or about 420 US$

Also the myth boat par excellence is the Hobie 16. Here in Europe a new (and complete) H16 will cost about 13.000 Euro's. There is a cheaper Hobie 16 but it lacks all kinds of stuff like the second trapeze and such. An excellent F16 with a good number of full carbon bits is the Stealth F16 which can be bought for 8000 british pounds or roughly 12.500 Euro's.

So if the new Hobie 16 is an entry boat dus to its low cost price then so too is the Stealth F16.

I do agree however that in the way of performance and handling the F16's are not entry level boats. They are however entry level boats for RACING. The latter does assume the sailors gained skills and experience prior on other boats.

Personally I believe the only true entry level boats are older second hand H16's, P16's, N5.0's and Waves. These can be bought for a few thousant dollars or Euro (or cheaper) and are well suited to learn the basic sailing and racing skills that will prepare the crews for true race oriented designs like the F18's, A's, F16's and such.

Having said this I'm happy to see a more lively second hand market for F16's develop; were F16's can be purchased for as little as 5000-7000 as well.

In my opinion no boat can be both "cheap entry level" and race oriented. So F16 positioned itself as the next best thing that was achievable "Entry level racing boat". However it is this mostly in the field of cost as the skills needed for the handling are further removed from boats like waves etc. But then again skills can be learned, financial burdens are harder to overcome.

Wouter

Mary,
I want to take a wave out in high winds but the place where I would rent one won't rent them if the winds get that high. I am sure it is a blast in about 18-20 knots.
pp

A race ready second hand H15 in NZ is about 2,500 Euros and that is a realistic entry level cost. Nobody is arguing that Hobie are "working" the cash cow they have created. They are the Cocoa Cola of beach cats. But the fact is that in most NZ boat shops you can at least order new parts. Walk into any of those stores and ask for an F16 part and they would not know what you were talking about.
I am not arguing with your sense of what is realistic as far as value (and speed) for buck are concerned. but do newbies want to buy into that or just find a fleet to race with?
Paper Tiger fleets are very competitive in the States, NZ and Aussie. To sail a PT well understanding of high ratio duel end Rotation/vang and downhauls is needed, not to mention, outhaul, remote dagger boards and adjustable rigging are needed. In depth understanding of sail shape and mast settings (while sailing) are essential to sail this boat well.
These boats have anual Worlds.
In what way would an old Prindle 16 so outpace that as a trainer for your boat Wouter?

I'd be asking for the appropiate Harken fitting (or what ever I want)

Clearly I was talking about specific manufacturers parts such as rudders, beams, and all manner of other parts pertaining particularly to Hobie whereas an AHPC dagger board or a Stealth front beam would not be so acheivable... I understand that any store will carry generic blocks but I am struggling to understand your point.

I don't know how many stores in your neck of the woods stock specific hobie parts like beams, mast and rudders, but overhere in the Netherlands ONLY the official hobie dealor does. So the point here is that either the parts are generic, like harken blocks etc, and can be bought everywhere no matter what make of boat OR the parts are very builder specific and then only the dealor has them, again without much difference between having a single Hobie dealor and a single F16 dealor.

I don't see your points as a matter of fact. I think you are just describing mental limits in your own mind which are not really limits in real life.

I'm sorry,

Wouter

Surely the point about an 'open' or formula class as opposed to SMOD or even MMOD is that if I wanted a new mast for my non-SMOD boat I could ring round several spar makers and choose a suitable replacement based on price or quality or reputation or delivery or different section or anything I choose to be important to me (such as the colour of the spreaders <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

The same principle is applicable to sails, beams, rudders etc.

With SMOD you get what 'they' say you can have and pay the (inflated) going rate.

mate, I dont know how viable the PT is in other areas. However here where once it had a fleet of 30+ boats it now as dead as a a dodo..
As is the kitty cat... 3 clubs each had 20 or so boats..
Why? The kitty didnt update and when they had the time it was decided to keep everything the same.. When the east coast realised the west coast fleet was sick it was too late.. The gun sailors and class admins had moved on..
A case of not evolving....
Saying this.. both classes could have remained viable.. cheap to home build. fast, light, affordable.. Without the guns and the admin.. its all moot...

Phill,
In answer to your original question, I think the most important thing is developing class loyalty. I don't know about other countries, but in the United States I haven't seen much of that in catamarans except for the Hobie 16 Class and the Shark Class (which just held its 44th annual National Championship and has two and three generations of families sailing Sharks).

When you find that kind of loyalty, and bonding among the people who love a certain class of boat, it is a beautiful thing.

But that, again, begs the question of how to build a successful class and keep it together. How do you create "class loyalty"?

And, then, of course, there is also the question of what constitutes a "Successful" class -- is it numbers, or is it longevity?

My point Wouter, if you read more than one page back is in regards to what make s a SUCCESSFUL class that VAILABLITY of parts IS an issue for NEWBIES wanting to make a decision for what class to go into. While YOUR mind is clear THIERS may not be and to ignore THAT reality is having your head in the sand in reagards to making F16 and easy choice and a successful class. My point about Hobie parts is that there ARE Hobie dealers and they ARE easy to find and the parts ARE easy to buy off the rack or order whereas F16 parts ARE NOT. That is REALITY as you call it. The main dealers of such things in Auckland, one of the biggest sailing cities of the World don't even know what F16 is! .
As far as the issues of this particular discussion it does not matter what you think Wouter, it matters what the newbie LOOKING IN sees not what you see looking out!
So,accepting that parts may be an issue for some newcomers a smaller class looking out might see it as very important to make finding and buying parts an easy path and make that clear with a website specific for parts World wide and help get that information to people looking into the sport and judging the realities of it. Or, on the other hand that sport could decide it is not a problem and not look to help those people and not create those paths to a decision for F16.
My Taipan 4.9 was under a thousand euros to buy because no one knows what it is or where to race it or where to get parts.
Don't be sorry Wouter, look up out of the boat at the whole story! ; )

Here in Australia a lot of class associations stock standard products (mast sections, booms, beams, etc.) and sell them at cost price (or close to it).

This is a great way to keep ppl in the class as all the potentially hard to find products are at hand. Ofcourse this doesn't help if there isn't an association nearby, as I found out recently.

Classes that have association stock I can think of are the heron, 125 and mosquito, all of which are fairly successful or growing classes atm.

If I can just but in here the one couple who remain very quite but have done a tremendous amount of good work for the F16 Class in the UK and Europe is John Pierce and Sue. They alone have put so much time, effort and their money into promoting the Class (primarily Stealths) and can not be thanked enough. Not only did they win numerous long distance races to put F16's on the map, they will always give helpfull advice no matter how daft the question.
I Know it is in their best interests to help as they are in the market to sell boats but their help, advise and friendship means a hell of alot more that most salespersons. As the F16 Class continues to grow in the UK I just hope that we can all still remain loyal to the John Pierce ethos of sailing enjoyment whether you are first, last or just out for a sail.
As long as J&S are still promoting F16's then the people who purchase Stealth's will have a brilliant back-up team who often go that extra mile to help. This to my mind is priceless and I doubt that many classes can boast this level of commitment.

I wish that was the case here as I would have perhaps kept my boat standard. As it was a carbon mast off an A cat off 800 was just too good a deal against over 2,000 for AHPC replacement.

Warbird,

Despite all the Hobie dealor babble the F16's are selling larger number of boat in area's like the USA then Hobie is selling their FX-one. So I'm really not too sure how important that Hobie dealor network truly is. It is not an unimportant issue, but I question whether it is one of the most important issues.

And Warbird lets not forget that I was instrumental in getting this F16 class from nothing into a emerging class internationally. All while NOT having a Hobie like dealor network. The FX-one design is still very much struggling at that. So I think I do have a full picture of the situation; don't you agree ?

Would I love to have a dealor network like Hobie ? Yes.

Would we ever get one ? Doubtfull even in the long run.

Will we need one ? Not really, there are other ways; DHL and Fedex are a gift from haven for us.

Furthermore I really do not believe that the F16 boats and class is at all attractive to real novices. The boat is just too complicated and challenging for that. Those sailors will always gravitate to very inexpensive second hand boats like 10 year old beat up Hobie's and likewise boats. It is the sailors which have a few years on such a boat and who are looking for a upgrade that the F16 class is attractive too. These are more serious about their sailing and have learned how NOT to break rudders and other design specific stuff often. The smaller stuff that does still wear down like blocks and lines can then be readily bought at your hobie dealor and everything is fine.

This is the way we always played it and look at where it has brought us. We are the only new class with any shot at greater international succes in the last 10 years; a role possible shared with the Spitfire design. So we must be doing something right or maybe we are not doing anything important wrong.

Wouter

Hear I can attest that in my communication with stealth owners it is often mentioned that J&S are always very quick in sending replacements parts to anyone in the world. I really do agree with Mark here that this can only be attributed to J&S love for the game of sailing. It doesn't appear that to them this is "just work", it is more to them and indeed I feel that is a great secret wapon. As such I fully agree with Mark's assesment :



Wouter

Well, naturally it is true that the F16 class no representation in NZL, THAT does make things more difficult. But it is to be expected for a class that started only 5 years ago and has a "no-budget" class association. It is first the big area's (USA, EU, AUS) and then slowly work in more and more representatives into area's of lesser importance like NZL. But give it time, it will happen. Afterall the A-cats don't have a Hobie like dealor network either and last I heared they were pretty popular in NZL.

Wouter

I think we need to find our own way. If we were to model another class, it would be the A-cats, imo.

Or, you have to find people who really like the boats they sail: 51 Snipes registered for the Western Hemisphere Championships in Coconut Grove.

If you are doing everything right Wouter why do leading members of this formula panic if someone mentions that some of the boats have production issues? Why is this discussion being had? Maybye stop always wanting to be right, look up out at the course, because it has changed, you are not starting it up now, ( and good on you for the energy you have put in and still do) you are trying to grow it past people who understand how good the boats are to a bigger field.
Organised, financially successful people with the money for these boats are used to minimising risk and dealerships represent a minimisation of risk. In the absence of dealerships other strategies must be used and an excellent "monkey mail" is one way around that.
To say people not should break parts and want new ones is..., well it's piffle and what about the revised faster foil that someone might want to upgrade to?!
Maybe I am wrong but you seem to have a real thing going about Hobie.. maybe get over that and study what we think they have done right, not what they have done wrong.

My "babble' is just shooting the breeze about what may or may not work. It's only turning over rocks looking for an answer, so if your hackles are raised, chill out and remember, you are preaching to the converted.

Something about Hobie. F16 must show they are faster than Hobie at every oportunity. Like cars.. "A win on Sunday will make a sale on Monday"... if the interested know how to buy one.

I noticed somewhere here that Hobie is going to ban other boats from thier races... Did anyone wonder why?

Something has just struck me..maybe fighting the 18s and big brother is the problem.. The bigger men on these boats will not go back to a smaller boat. Maybe F16 needs to show how much faster than the older style 16s it is....... Maybe that is where the people will jump from.
Why not decide how to take the people on H16s off them and onto F16. Why not target that huge demographic specifically?

Liberate these people from those agricultural field plows and onto the real deal! Save them Wouter, they are fellow sailors after all! Have invitation races for H16 sailors. They find out how slow their boat really is and then get a ride on a Taipan!... yes yes or blade etc.

Yes, A cats have a long history here so I suppose the torch keeps getting passed on. I think the Kiwi problem is that the development classes here are mono, have been around for years and the likes of Coutts, Dickson, Monk, Butterworth ect are taken by the "Yacht Club" ethic which is incredibly elitist about monos vs cats. These people are trained into what they are doing from 4/5 and 6 years of age. It is normal for a familly to run a 20,000 dollars set of Starlings and Ps and campaigin them vigorously. A youngster would not see a cat until early teens at best and then there would be an argument with Dad about it.
You only have to see that our Olympic Tornado sailors are both X board sailors..how trajic is that?
I believe the Olympics need a smaller class of cats as well. Like the Laser, a non trap one man 12/14 could get the young involved early and keep excellent sailors and profiles for longer. A medal like that would be something to aim for and grow cat sailors like bobsy! I cannot speak for you guys overseas, but I know that here cats are seen as no choice at all for a career in the sport. : (