| |  Re: Anti-Tiger Smack
[Re: mmiller]
#82626
09/05/06 06:28 PM 09/05/06 06:28 PM |
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29 malgray 
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29
| As the foundation president of F18 in Australia, the formation of which, was a catalyst to formalization of NAF18 and international status of the F18 class, I would like to make a few comments:
I am a Tiger sailor
I am I even a Hobie dealer
I have stood on the podium in most F18 events here.
With help from some others, I formed the Australian F18 class in the hope that all keen competitive catsailors could compete together and enjoy camaraderie. It worked for a while. In the beginning, I used to encourage others to purchase Nacras and even the "fledgling" Capricorn, in the hope that the class would grow and prosper. There was no aggressive marketing. Hobie won EVERYTHING here for a long time and even still does win most events. We never used the F18 class vehicle to deride other designs. Sure we would spruke of our achievements on our own commercial sites but we never berrated other manufacturers or their choice of boat in the public arena. Call it integrity, call it pride or dignity but it was a genuine attempt to build a class in which we could all benefit, by way of competition and boat sales.
I am well known for my "pie" theory here in Australia where we al help to grow the pie and benefit from increased participation.
The quote from Jill Nickerson appears on the Capricorn website. I find it offensive. Whilst it is a private opinion,Obviously it is endorsed by a manufacturer whose primary motivation is increasing market share.To date, official Capricorn involvement in positive promotion of the F18 class here has been zip! Yet they think it is appropriate to slag the opposition.
I've had a gutful of over-enthusiastic zealots who do nothing for the common good. Some see criticism of the opposition as a means of advancement.
I have other options which are far more enjoyable and much less work than F18. They are looking better by the day!
Mal Gray | | | Re: Anti-Tiger Smack
[Re: malgray]
#82628
09/05/06 08:51 PM 09/05/06 08:51 PM |
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ warbird
old hand
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ | Interesting to hear this.
When I first found my Taipan 4.9 I had no people at all to talk to about what the boat was. On going to the AHPC site I read that I had bought the fastest boat on the planet which basicly s**t miracles.
I suppose I just wanted to believe all of that because I had one. It has taken a long time to find it is still a strong, high performance boat but has fallen behind because of lack of development and others emulating it. There are a whole bunch of boats that would usually whip it's A** and I am in this conversation because I felt the overenthusiastic rethoric on the site made me feel lied to. That made my sailing growth slower.
I am not saying I was lied to but it felt that way.
I was shocked that a sport that relies so much on tech and onto it inovation would be so flowery about reality.
As I tried to find out how to set the boat up I was gobsmacked about how little tech exchange there is between cat types, let alone mono/cat cross pollination. I think not trading trust and ideas slows the fleet down.
The rehoric does not stop at boats. I have also had to try to find my way through sheets and cords to understand which type and why.
The boat shops I found out after hundreds of dollars just talk rot and sell cord.
Then when I was recently going through a ropes catalogue I saw that the best trait one sheet type had was "its rugged good looks" at which point I learnt to believe nothing.
This site gives sailors a chance to try to cut through the BS and not spend stupid dollars. For those of you who have sponsorship or big wallets, that is great and good luck to you. The rest want to get the bang for the buck and need to do homework.
This discussion has grown from the first posting and it's not to bag Tigers, it has used them as a platform around which to discuss what is happening with boat types.
I am in a place where I have no physical contact with high tech cat sailing and right here is my class room.
To those who have delivered sensible debate and ideas, thanks. To the frightened who can't hear bad things about their ride. Get over it and make your feelings understood on the water.
From the whole of this thread what I have learnt is that Wouter has an unhealthy interest in off the beach race cats : ) and some lucky, tallented buggers get paid to do what I love and that PRACTICE RULES THE WAVES. | | | Re: Anti-Tiger Smack
[Re: warbird]
#82629
09/05/06 09:21 PM 09/05/06 09:21 PM |
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia Darryl_Barrett
old hand
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia | Hey, just my observation but I have always found that people who "bag" their opposition (them personally or their equiptment), usually bring out their competitive instinct instead and as a result tend to "raise the bar" rather than knock them out of the "race"
I may be a little perverse, but if I "win" (anything) I enjoy it much more if the "losers" "bag" me for my performance I.E "you were just lucky" or "If my boat wasn't such a dog today you would never have beaten ME", etc. That always makes me feel better than if the people that I won from say things like, "well done", or "you were definitely the best person out there today", or "I sailed as good as I ever have but no one deserves it more than you". Those sorts of comments tend to make me feel almost apologetic for winning, which takes the edge off the joy. It always feels better to have won over "bad" loser rather than "good" ones, makes what I have done feel just that little bit sweeter. | | | Re: Anti-Tiger Smack
[Re: Darryl_Barrett]
#82630
09/05/06 09:36 PM 09/05/06 09:36 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina | Hey, just my observation but I have always found that people who "bag" their opposition (them personally or their equiptment), usually bring out their competitive instinct instead and as a result tend to "raise the bar" rather than knock them out of the "race"
I may be a little perverse, but if I "win" (anything) I enjoy it much more if the "losers" "bag" me for my performance I.E "you were just lucky" or "If my boat wasn't such a dog today you would never have beaten ME", etc. That always makes me feel better than if the people that I won from say things like, "well done", or "you were definitely the best person out there today", or "I sailed as good as I ever have but no one deserves it more than you". Those sorts of comments tend to make me feel almost apologetic for winning, which takes the edge off the joy. It always feels better to have won over "bad" loser rather than "good" ones, makes what I have done feel just that little bit sweeter. I can identify with that...I like watching the frustration oooze out of those people - makes me step up my game. I keep trying to do it until they can no longer blame it on my luck.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: Anti-Tiger Smack
[Re: warbird]
#82631
09/05/06 10:48 PM 09/05/06 10:48 PM |
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia Darryl_Barrett
old hand
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia | I don't know that your experience concerning inter exchange of ideas (or lack of), set up, technology, etc, is the "norm” WARBIRD. I have always found over many, many years of sailing that the vast majority of sailers, regardless of whatever class of boat, whether it be mono hulled dingy, multi hulled, trailer sailer, or ocean racer, whether the sailers be raw beginners or top professionals (America's cup excepted) have always been only too pleased to discuss any/all aspects of sailing with ANY interested party, and down through the years the adaptation of any GOOD idea relating to “set up”, fitting lay out, or design, has freely flowed between all and every class/type of boat.
If you want to know how anything on a boat works, or even how one class compares to another, always ask another sailer, they are always friendly and receptive to any other “of their kind”, (forget the rest I.E chandleries, sales people etc).
There is a camaraderie amongst all sailers, even if two of them are “deadly” enemies on dry land, they will still immediately go to each others assistance if needed “at sea”. | | | Re: Anti-Tiger Smack
[Re: Darryl_Barrett]
#82632
09/05/06 10:59 PM 09/05/06 10:59 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi... hobie1616
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi... | Hey, just my observation but I have always found that people who "bag" their opposition (them personally or their equiptment), usually bring out their competitive instinct instead and as a result tend to "raise the bar" rather than knock them out of the "race"
I may be a little perverse, but if I "win" (anything) I enjoy it much more if the "losers" "bag" me for my performance I.E "you were just lucky" or "If my boat wasn't such a dog today you would never have beaten ME", etc. That always makes me feel better than if the people that I won from say things like, "well done", or "you were definitely the best person out there today", or "I sailed as good as I ever have but no one deserves it more than you". Those sorts of comments tend to make me feel almost apologetic for winning, which takes the edge off the joy. It always feels better to have won over "bad" loser rather than "good" ones, makes what I have done feel just that little bit sweeter. Ya gotta love the sore losers. They make it very hard not to smile from ear to ear while you beat them on every point of sail. But, always take the high road whether it's competition or selling boats or anything else. This thread was started because of precieved negative selling. Negative selling only goes so far. Once the customer catches on that the majority of the pitch is trashing the competition they'll probably walk. A good example of no negative sell are NFL coaches. You'd think the opposing team were all gods from Mt. Olympus the way they talk.
US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach | | | Re: Anti-Tiger Smack
[Re: warbird]
#82633
09/06/06 12:46 AM 09/06/06 12:46 AM |
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia Tornado_ALIVE
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia | Interesting to hear this.
When I first found my Taipan 4.9 I had no people at all to talk to about what the boat was. On going to the AHPC site I read that I had bought the fastest boat on the planet which basicly s**t miracles.
I suppose I just wanted to believe all of that because I had one. It has taken a long time to find it is still a strong, high performance boat but has fallen behind because of lack of development and others emulating it. There are a whole bunch of boats that would usually whip it's A** and I am in this conversation because I felt the overenthusiastic rethoric on the site made me feel lied to. That made my sailing growth slower. Firstly, tell me which 16 footer without a kite is quicker than a Taipan 4.9 ????? Also, if you fully optimised the platform to F16 specs (increase beam, self taking jib, snuffer, updated sails etc), I think you will find it to be at the top of the F16 class. The T4.9 was a $hit hot boat when it was first released some 14 yers ago..... and continues to be. OK, Capricorn have spun events in their favour to help market themself..... Just like many other manufactures and other products in the past...... That's marketing. Not like Hobie Cat have not been down that path before. AHPC make a very good product which can not be denined..... It may not be a Merc but if you want that sort of quality, expect to pay double and give Marstrom a call. My personal opinion is that the Capricorn is a better finish and a more user frendly lay out then the Tiger. That is my personal taste and you do not have to agree with it..... But that is a large part of the reason I bought a Capricorn. The Cap has also shown that it is atleast no slower than the Tiger as the Infusion will do also in the future. I will say it again, the truth is there is [email]F@%K[/email] all difference in speed between the boats and unless you are at the very top of the fleet, you will not notice the speed difference. Now lets all stop this Manufacture bashing and just get out and sail...... Let the Manufactures fight it out themself whilst we sit back and enjoy the spin offs from it like improved quaility boats and competitive pricing.... The just choose the boat that is better suited for you.
 | | | Here some I-20 smack !
[Re: Darryl_Barrett]
#82634
09/06/06 02:22 AM 09/06/06 02:22 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe Wouter
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe |
I'm certainly not a great sailor, but the most rewarding wins I got this year was when a nacra One-design I-20 sailor (with the huge new mainsail) said to me that the only good thing about my boat (modified Taipan 4.9 = F16) was its lightweight. He said it to me on a club race day and later on I beat him to the finish line in both races (elapsed time). Call it luck, call it skill, or call it "he was having a bad day", I don't care. It was one of the best vindicating experiences ever.
He never said anything afterwards.
Wouter
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
| | | Re: Anti-Tiger Smack
[Re: Laruffa]
#82635
09/06/06 02:39 AM 09/06/06 02:39 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe Wouter
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe |
Mark,
I object to your insinuation. Were did I say the tiger is a "has been" ?
And what has the Capricorn got to do with my comments. I never mentioned it. I only commented on the eternal "Tiger needs not to change" mantra, when it does change anyway.
The other stuff is approaching plain name-calling.
Hell, I drove your girlfriend around on a shopping mission for (also) your 2004 Punta ala campaign. Yes I guess I have too much time on my hands if I'm willing to do that. Next time I will just flip you guys off, okay.
And if you really want to know, I did see the pictures of your new design. My first thoughts, lets see it build and perform first. Up till then it is just a couple of electrons in an PC display. Am I being over critical here ? No, I just have the experience that it is actually quite hard to transform an idea in to a succesful sailboat (or even class). I've witnessed countless idea's which were aborted along the way. And I am informed enough to know your first Preditor design.
Good luck Mark,
Wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 09/06/06 02:40 AM.
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
| | | And here some Taipan slack ...
[Re: warbird]
#82638
09/06/06 03:28 AM 09/06/06 03:28 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe Wouter
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe |
Wouter, I think it was you who said the Taipan was in danger of falling behind because of a lack of development.
It is actually not in danger of falling behind, it has actually fallen behind already and the gap widens slowly but surely. This is partly the reason AHPC is currently designing its replacement. The Capricorn F16. Actually it doesn't pains me to write this, certainly not in the way other boat owners seem to do when their design is subject to scruteny. Even my own boat, a modified Taipan, is falling behind currently. The new Ashby and Landenberger sails are just better then mine suit of sails (Goodall/Redhead from 2003). I know because I test sailed these as well as the other boats (Stealth, Blade). Is the Taipan (or my own boat) out of its class for this reason ? Not yet really. While falling behind the Taipan is still about as fast as the newest designs in its class (F16's). Meaning to the extend that even a little difference in sailing skills can overcome this inequality. Which brings us back to the point that time spend on the water (training) and talent are the things that really pay off and not the choice of boat. With the right upgrades there are a couple of years left in the competitive life of the Taipan but only with the right upgrades = changes. Something I need not convince you of I think. I do believe the upgrades are small enough anually to prevent an arms race and to make participation not more expensive then in a pure One-Design race.
If we were not discussing a particualr boat, what would you think about the "hype' the retailers indulge in?
Well, some hype is necessary if you want to sell boats and stay in business. I had to do it when I was still an official in the F16 class. I never really did enjoy that part but it is an absolute necessity or you are going nowhere. But I do believe some retailers are going over the top and I don't have much respect for that. In the end of day even Hype must be based on solid truthful core. I personally think the quote :"It was painfully obvious that their choice of boats, being a Tiger, really hurt their performance at the Worlds." was over the line of good taste. In addition I fully expect private sailors, like the ones on this forum, to act against the hypes and provide the counterargument to the hype. I fully appreciate it when such a thing happens to the boat and hypes I favour. If the hype did have a solid core of truth then the this counterargument will never really hurt the design or sales as it will repeatily "proof" itself by reality. And I think most of us do accept a certain portion of hype. Afterall, we all understand that you don't approach a lady by first naming your bad points, right ?
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
| | | And here some AHPC slack
[Re: warbird]
#82639
09/06/06 03:44 AM 09/06/06 03:44 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe Wouter
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe |
read the blurb about the Taipan on the site. While I know it is a great little boat
(I did choose it) and the others have all played actch up for over a decade the site would have you believe it is in a league with the 18s and 20s or maybe just the fastest boat in the whole World. I am talking about the rethoric.. I see it as unmittigated BS.
Well this write-up is rather old and back then it was true to a large extend. In the last 10 years the other classes (Tornado, F18, A-cat) did really see alot of development while the Taipan was frozen in its 1989 state. It is indeed telling it took so long for the others to consistantly stay ahead of the Taipan. The introduction of the spinnaker to the other boats really was the thing that turned the fortunes of the Taipan. But I agree that the I would have worded the pitch a little differently. But then again I'm the one who has been arguing that the Taipan class needed to incorporate design upgrades into their class for the last 7 years. Still, we must also realize that with the upgrades the Taipan is indeed of the same order as the 18's and 20's; even the newer ones (assuming equal sailor skills). This latter condition is not a trivial one as the skill level in the Tornado, F18 and A-cat classes is just so incredibally high. Alot of people believe they can buy a good boat and immediately sail in the leading pack. But in reality you need a good amount of time to get to know the boat and work up sailing skills c.q. team coordination. I don't think enough of Taipan / F16 sailors are putting in this effort/time yet. I certainly don't. I got a new crew almost every year. This is skewing comparisons. So overall, I don't think it is unfounded BS, even though I would have worded the write-up significantly differently. I agree with you that unfounded retoric is bad taste and also just simply bad. Almost as bad as not upgrading your boat every now and then. C ya Wouter
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
| | | Re: Here some I-20 smack !
[Re: warbird]
#82640
09/06/06 03:59 AM 09/06/06 03:59 AM |
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia Tornado_ALIVE
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia | read the blurb about the Taipan on the site. While I know it is a great little boat
(I did choose it) and the others have all played actch up for over a decade the site would have you believe it is in a league with the 18s and 20s or maybe just the fastest boat in the whole World. I am talking about the rethoric.. I see it as unmittigated BS. What blurb are you quoting...... I see the following and do not see ANYTING missleading in it. Also the Taipan is such a great little boat which punches well and trully above its weight. VYC Yardstick Taipan 4.9 Sloop - 73.5Alpha Omega 5.0 - 82.0 Calypso 16 - 85.5 Cobra 16 - 84.0 Gemini - 88.0 Hydra 16 - 85.0 Hobie 16 - 81.5 Hobie 18 - 78.5 Hobie 20 - 73.0 NACRA 5.0 - 81.0 NACRA 5.2 - 79.0 NACRA 5.5 - 73.5 NACRA 5.8 - 72 Stingray 18 mkII 74.5 Taipan 4.9 cat rigged - 76.5Dolphin 16 - 85.0 Hobie 17 - 82.5 Hobie 17 sport - 79.0 Nacra 16sq - 79.5 NARCA 18 sq - 73.5 From the AHPC web site
It's Bite Is Infectious
TAIPAN 'UNI'
The fun starts with the Taipan Uni. It’s heritage stems from A-Class and Tornado experience and development. With only a mainsail, the Uni is a delight to sail single-handed. Our ‘FingerPrint’ helm system means light and responsive handling. And although Taipan Uni weighs a mere 105kg, the vacuum formed ‘CoreStrength’ hulls provide a super strong platform for reliable, high-speed performance.
Taipan’s rig is leading edge technology. The ‘ProWing’ mast is the result of many years of race-winning development by Greg Goodall. The profile is unique to AHPC, gives less drag and adds around 2 square metres of sail area. With a Goodall square-top main, it’s the most innovative, efficient rig of its size in the world.
Taipan features all the AHPC go-fast gear. ‘TruSteer’ parabolic rudders reduce ventilation, eliminate cavitation and minimises drag. ‘SmartLock’, our new lock down/auto release system protects your rudder blades in shallow water. Taipan’s ‘HiLift’ centreboards are not only very stiff and lightweight; control is easier with a single cord to operate both boards.
The carbon fibre rudders and stocks are strong, durable and weigh a mere 1.7kg per set. The quick action, detachable crossbar, tiller extension and rudders make fast and simple work for fitting and removing the rudder assemblies. The foils also come packed in specialised soft foam bags for protection while transporting.
Centreboard recesses have extensive carpet lining, providing a good grip with smooth operation and sure protection for the foils in all positions.
For more control ‘MainTamer’ our centre-mainsheet system gives you or your crew better sheeting angles and easier, quicker tacking.
Taipan ‘Sloop’
Simply add a jib to Taipan and you’re ready to go two-up. But when it’s all about performance, a fuller mainsail is recommended. And when it really counts, Goodall Yacht Sails will cut a main to work best for your specific crew weight. For pure heart-bounding sailability and regatta winning results, Taipan Sloop really fangs.
Taipan ‘Hunter’
Hot up Taipan even more by adding a spinnaker and set sail to go after anyone. With Taipan Hunter even large cats are fair game. If you’ve been seriously bitten by Taipan, ask about our Hunter kit.
Taipan has already proven its racing ability with numerous wins at major regattas. With agile and easy-to-handle characteristics, along with pure speed, little wonder it’s charming sailors all over the world. In any configuration, Taipan ‘really fangs’.
| | | Re: And here some Taipan slack ...
[Re: Wouter]
#82641
09/06/06 04:13 AM 09/06/06 04:13 AM |
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia Tornado_ALIVE
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia |
It is actually not in danger of falling behind, it has actually fallen behind already and the gap widens slowly but surely. This is partly the reason AHPC is currently designing its replacement. The Capricorn F16.
The T4.9 is not and never has been an F16. The reason why Greg is not persuing it is because the 4.9 class is alive and well in OZ and it is not the manufacture, but the class members who have a say in its future. If they wanted to introduce a new main sail, AHPC would be more than happy to develop one. If you did want to optmise the Taipan 4.9 as an F16, you would increase the beam, add a carbon mast, self tacking jib, more modern main sail, snuffer and spinnaker. To do this you will change the entire boat with the exception of the foils and hulls. And if you did do this, I think you will find it will give no ground to a Blade or a Stealth. Greg will plan to develop a new F16 based on the Capricorn so as not to do damage to the existing T4.9 fleet. | | | Re: Anti-Tiger Smack
[Re: Laruffa]
#82643
09/06/06 03:48 PM 09/06/06 03:48 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe Wouter
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe |
Alright, everything is cool then
Wouter
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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