I never said Randy was some rookie on his first sail, but I think you will agree that on boats as powered up as these [censored] can happen rapidly, such as the main sheet wrapping itself around the traveler. I'm here to tell you that has caused myself and crew to do some synchronized diving on several occasions if you’re not paying attention. How many times have you had to dump the main to keep the boat upright in a big hammering gust? On these boats, without being able to self-right, every sheet needs to be hand held to prevent this type of occurrence, just like the main sheet on a beach cat. Hell I’ve had the boat flip in 8 knots when driving with my head in the boat or up my a##. These boats with such a big stick and sail plan would go over in less under the same circumstance.

Don't get me wrong, I think the boats are way cool and would love to hitch a ride on one sometime, I just think they need to work out a way to right the boat in a flip. The mast needs to float to prevent a turtle for one thing, and then devise a way to get it back up on its own. Maybe use a chute like a big righting bag around a winch or something similar.



Edit: What do you think the chances of having the top post on two pages in the same thread. I think I'm going to play the Lotto tonight. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

...that one 'bad apple' is poisoning the barrel for all of us multihullers.

The seaworthiness of the boat is NOT the issue.

It's the possibility of multihulls being banned from racing that is the rub.

Get it?

Here we are, trying to get multihulls generally accepted, and it's like, a step backwards. K?

FYI, from the F-boats list:

There is a lot of inside stuff and possible personal agendas inside LBYC. But, a few things should be noted.
the ORCA fleet has been very small (2 or 3 boats, if you don't count the R-33's) for the whole Catalina Island Series......so throwing out all ORCA boats wasn't a big deal for them, since we already dis-qualified the R-33.
We (ORCA), have talked to the other clubs and have NOT gotten a feeling that they will, in any way follow "suit".
I just got off the water racing and the ORCA fleet was the largest in this day race open to all PHRF and ORCA boats.
The sponsoring yacht club loves us and has no intention of cutting out their biggest fleet.
There is a general feedback though, that they are happy ORCA had the guts/courage/sense (?) to dis-qualify the R-33 as an ORCA boat due to it's high rate of capsizing.
ORCA is presently working on a stability rule or guidelines and are involved in discussions as to how the R 33 can change their parameters to avoid capsizing in the future ( more crew, wider beam, shorter mast ??????)............... it will be awhile before it's all sorted out but ORCA has worked very hard to get multihulls accepted in open yacht club races for over 40 years and we don't plan to see our hard work go down the drain.

Mike Leneman
ORCA board member

I'll second that the boat is cool, and I hope it succeeds. And I realize that a powered up multi is going to take more skill to sail safely.

However - although capsize recovery is an admirable goal, on a boat that size I believe they should try to reduce the chance of capsize in the first place. A boat this size going over involves forces and issues that are beyond our experiences in dealing with our beach cats. It ain't the same thing. I'm not saying it has the be safest thing on Earth with the sailors encased in bubble wrap. But I think there are things that could be done to help keep it from going over that would not significantly affect the performance. But so far the response is it's the sailor's fault.

The thing that could be done is exactly the thing that isolates multis from the serious mono racers. That is SPEND MORE MONEY! Granted, by and large, multi folks dont have it like a Farr 40 campaign. But the simplest answer is to build a boat that is both wider and lighter or as light. And what does that require? Lots of carbon fiber. An extra 50 grand or so and no problem, an equally fast boat wider, and with lots more righting moment. Sadly, the money game strikes again.

ironically, the LS32 is not much more expensive than a kitted-out R33.

And its all carbon.

For now....there's this thing that happens in the boat building industry...price creep. The first couple come out really affordable before reality sets in on the builder. Same thing happened to the R33.

This boat's already pretty light - if I remember right the current stock boat is lighter than the turbo carbon version that they had, all due to better construction.

Making it a little wider would not cost that much. But my feeling is that the boat should have a lighter (carbon) stick, that's the only carbon it needs. A heavy tall mast on a narrow boat means the point of no return happens sooner. I would also use an open mesh tramp forward. It would be wetter, but there would be less to catch the wind when it gets underneath the boat as the hull raises.

Adding the width back would make it a little slower in the light stuff, but I suspect it wouldn't hurt speed when the wind came up. A lighter rig would help its speed, especially in choppy conditions. An open mesh tramp forward would not affect speed, although it might make for a wetter ride. None of these things would break the bank. Given the price of the boat now, it should come with a carbon stick anyway IMO.

When I win the lotto, those are the mods I'd make to mine (if the Lightspeed somehow didn't tempt me away... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Don't the cats that go around the world throttle back at some point?
Where is that point?
Perhaps the R33's want more speed over reason like beachcats?

Sould a mast float be required for offshore cats?

Bull! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Monohull people are always looking for reasons to bar multihulls. At Key West Week they allowed multihulls for the first time. During the regatta a port tack monohull hit and sunk a catamaran on starboard. The administration immediately blamed it on the catamaran because they sail strange courses. Hmmm! But the cat was sailing upwind, zigging and zagging just like a monohull. They went on to ban multihulls from the regatta, even without a reason to do so.
As for mast floats, we had a MacGregor 36 cat that had a big float on top. It was very aerodynamic and certainly did not hamper speed. We were faster than Macs without the float. Also, the boat had a waterbag system. While on its side you used the spinnaker pole to put the bag out away from the bottom of the boat and the jib sheet around a winch to right it. We never went over, but the previous owner said it really worked.

"

As someone who has has worked with aligning racing and Club insurance, there is not any discussion about what type of boats are racing, just the fact that someone IS racing drives up the liability cost. And here in South carolina we do have to obtain a permit from the Dept of Natural Resources to race on ANY body of water. If you do not have the permit on the race committee boat, then EVERYONE participating in the race is subject to $500 fine, more for the organizers. You better look into your states regulations before you decide to organize a race.

No matter what you race, whether it be bicycles to airplanes there is always an inherent risk. People can be prone to making poor judgements when it comes to pushing the limits of themselves, or their equipment when in the heat of battle so to speak. The ones who don't push the envelope die off in animosity, while those strive for that little extra are the ones who make a name for themselves. Moral of the story is that things happen. Cars crash, boats flip, and toast will always land jelly side down when dropped. If you're one a member of the elite that can take a 100k worth of boat out and not really care about what happens, either because of dangerous conditions or a dangerous lack of experience, then more power to you. It isn't the place for others to decide what is too dangerous, or what is should be considered calous behavior.

It is absolutely the place for race committees/organizers. They have to deal with the fall out, success or failure of the event, and potential liability.

That is the problem, liability for the race organizers and rescue boats when someone "Pushing the limit" goes over the edge, then blames everyone else for their mishap and sues all parties, to include boat manufacturer (remeber why Hobie had to make the Comp Tip masts??). That is why the insurance is so high for racing.