I've got an H16 that I sometimes use to explore coastal areas. Having never sailed a cat with daggerboards, I often wonder how much they help point higher into the wind. I see monohulls (never sailed one) that seem to sail in any direction they want. Just thinking ahead for my next boat.

yes, dramatically.

Very much so. The 16's asymetrical hulls fight each other; one wants to go right, the other left. That alone will reduce pointing ability.

As much as a monohull with a keel or centerboard?

Any recomendations for a catamaran that's relatively easy to setup, has daggerboards, easy to sail for two people? The wife and I are having a blast with our H16, and love going fast, but sometimes just want to cruse around checking stuff out while not concentrating so hard on sailing the boat. I was almost thinking of Hobie Getaway, but I bet that does not point well either.

Every type of boat is different but most leaners will out point most cats. So the real question might be, do ya wanna point higher or do ya wanna haul butt?

As far as recommendations, you can't get a boat that's any simpler to sail than a H16. If you want boards take a look at the H17 and TheMightyHobie18. The H20 has a bunch of stuff to do for set up but it screams once it's on the water. I'm sure others will chime in with their recommendations.

It's not that daggerboards "make the boat point higher"; it's more that the daggerboards reduce your leeward drift dramatically when going to windward. There is no point in pointing a boat high (pinching) to windward if it is then "sliding" sideways through the water to leeward, thereby not only NOT going where it is pointed, but also going appreciably slower in the process. The daggerboards, by being approximately at the centre of lateral resistance of the hull and sail plan, and thereby acting as a pivotal point between “up and down” to the forward direction of the boat, also function to relieve pressure from off of the rudders letting them (the rudders) operate better in their designed function.

Actually monohulls don't point higher into the breeze - they typically sail with a very similar apparent wind (actually a little less on the nose). The difference is that they go slower hence their apparent wind doesn't point back so far. We actually sail at very high angles of attack when it comes to apparent wind, but we move so much faster, that the wind we generate from speed changes the angle of the wind we have to trim to. The faster you go, the lower you have to sail to keep some sort of angle on the wind across the sails.

Next time you're out - try pointing with a monohull...you can do it easily but it's just not the fastest way to sail the cat.

Nacra 5.2

Just as simple as your H16 to sail, but with boards.

So, Darryl.. What is the effect of moving a dagger board either forward or aft of the traditional center of effort placement? Can a boat point higher and maintain better speed if the dagger is moved either forward or aft?

By moving the boards forward and thereby changing the C of LR you tend to induce more weather helm and it will appear that the boat wants to point up higher. Move the boards back and the reverse occurs (i.e. lee helm). The ability of the boat to actually “sail” higher with the boards forward, (if that is what appears to happen), is primarily an illusion just because the helm always wants to take the boat higher doesn’t mean that it can actually sail higher (with advantage). The best set up is when everything is balanced I.E. the C of E of the sails, together with the C of LR of the hull/boards, and the “tune” of the rudders.

If that wasn't a loaded question coming from an ARC21 owner! (boards are in front of the main beam - "shared lift" with the rudders is the interesting idea proposed by Mr. Bill Roberts).

I can't imagine that forward mounted daggerboards help the boat tack quickly but the idea of the board and the rudder sharing the lift of the sails is an "out of the box" idea...Looking at the latest trends in F18, the boards keep getting further and further back.

I have had many experiences with and without dagger boards. No board style boats are usually much simpler to sail... but are therefore agricualtural compared to a board boat.
A good comprimise is the Spitfire which has "keels" and goes great. If you were thinking of a Getaway.. the Spitfire has all of its advantages like roller furling and no boom) but is a grownups boat.
Boards are something else to think about when leaving and arriving back at shore and need tuning while sailing but are a great asset to the art of sailing.

I heard that G-Cats can point as well as or better than round bottom daggerboard boats. G-Cats have the symmetrical deep V hulls with no daggerboards. Some people think this type of hull is more efficient than round bottom boats. I think they don't have as many issues with dragging the transom, which sometimes can't be helped.

Where's Bill Roberts been lately?

D. Ho
TheMightyHobie18 1067

...ehhh, Hobie Wave ?


Also if you want boards then forget about the H17 and TheMightyHobie18. Those of the TheMightyHobie18 are huge. They have all the issues that modern boards have and then some more because they are really big and they point slightly lower as well.

The H17 for that matter does't have boards but more like windsurfer skegs. These boards are absolutely tiny. They help balance the boats in steerage but are far too small to help upwind performance. It is actually very comparable to a skeg boat in performance.

So if you want a boarded cat then go for one of the more modern kind. These can now be had for relatively small investments.

Wouter

In your case NHsailor I would look at modern skeg boats, like the nacra 5.0 or nacra 500. It will suit all your wishes the best and have slighlty better upwind performance then asymmerical boat like the H16. It is also less weight sensitive.

Boarded cats are great but I don't think you really want to go that way. Often these boats are more race oriented and therefor are fitted with more and more complex systems.

Wouter

Long daggerboards are more efficient by having a higher aspect ratio, which reduces tip losses. According to Frank Bethwaite, pointing ability is a function of efficiency (lift to drag ratio).

Similarly, unirigs can point higher because of their higher aspect ratio mains. (A jib makes the sail plan wider, but no taller, reducing aspect ratio.)

Boardless boats, such as the Hobie 16 are the ultimate in low aspect ratio centerboards, using the hulls as boards. On these boats, the mast is typically raked to load up the rudders because the rudders are much higher aspect ratio than the lifting hulls, and therefore much more efficient lifting devices. To transfer as much load as possible to the more efficient rudders, you must rake the rig as much as possible.

I presume that you mean the Topcat Spitfire <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

'thought I'd let you chime in on that one Dermot! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

When moving the boards back, you also rake the mast aft to load up both boards and rudders to get that shared lift.
One theory is to use the boards for lift and then the rudders just steer the boat.., this is the way things were for years.
Then folks started raking masts aft, copying the Hobie 16, to put load on the rudders as well.
At first it was not particularly effective.., probably because we were not using enough aft rake.

Wouter mentioned the Wave which sails very high to windward with only a skep. But, the mast is raked way aft to utilize the skeg and the rudders for underwater lift.
Rick