I read in the T foil thread the the F16 and F14 classes are NOT professional classes. This makes me wonder, what constitues a proffesional class?
Proffesionals sailing in the class?
Recognition by ISAF?
The class actually makes money?
The class charges for you to be "in" the class?

What in essence makes X or Y class a proffesional class?

ps: This thread is by no means, meant as a sarcastic comeback. This is a serious question and I hope this will not turn into a class vs class bickering fest.
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Robi, I had the same question mark in my mind about "professional class."

IMO, the reference to "professional class" meant the class attracts people who make a living doing sailing related things to its events. Usually because of the chance at exposure.

Example: Tornado Class at the Olympics. Think someone trying to make a living making sails/building hulls/driving boats wants his product to win the Gold medal? Yes, b/c the exposure can lead them to bigger and better things. This does not imply that professional Tornado sailors, shun other classes - they are attracted to racing the T for the chance at exposure, as they would be attracted to F18, A Class, monos too, etc.

I do not think there is a class for professional sailors only - except the V40's maybe.

Would "professional" indicate that the sailors themselves are being paid to sail?

If F18 is a professional class, someone owes me a lot of money.

Probably refers to class management.

Is the class run by volunteers... Or does the class hire a professional to run it. Seems like the Laser class (in the US) is professionally managed (if I understand the shitkicking contest on Sailing anarchy)

The Tornado Class toyed with this idea... Hire someone to promote and manage the class for the purpose of increasing its professional opportunities, running championships,collecting the dues and promoting the class, etc etc. At least Mitch Booth et al were big supporters of this notion at the time.

ISAF have a definition of a professional, there are 3 grades of sailor.

Grade 1: non pro, normal punters

Grade 2: has something to do with the marine industry, or has at some stage been a group 3 but has not been a 3 for some time.

Grade 3: Pro, gets paid to sail, train or otherwise prepare the boat for racing.

Most of you will be happy to know that you are Grade 1 and that means you can all crew on boats such as Farr 40's and the like where they restrict the number of Grade 3 crew so as to maintain the "amatuer" status for the event. The fact that most F40 crews get a "living" allowance greater than the average wage... is not the point!

As a personal point of view, I would say that apart from things like "the Americas cup", around the world races, etc, there are no classes of sailing craft that would fall under the banner of "professional classes", there are though professional sailers and non professional sailers. The professional sailer is by definition, one who "makes his lively hood or living solely from sailing and its peripheries, as a business".
If you relate “professional classes” of sailing boats to another sport where there are recognised professionals such as automobile racing, then you would have to say that “cart”, “formula one”, “motto GP”, and their like are fully professional, but an enthusiast who goes out on a Sunday afternoon and races his “home maintained” car in a hill climb, off road rally, Targa, etc, even though he may receive “prize money” or even an “appearance” subsidy, still cannot be justifiably called “a professional” competing in a “professional” class/event.
There is a vast difference between a professional “class” and a class that is run/administered “professionally”. One refers specifically to the remuneration and the other refers to the “excellence/diligence” of its organization/administration. Similarly with sailers, one doesn’t have to be a “professional” (money wise) to sail “professionally” (conduct and ability wise)
I am not sure how it is done elsewhere in the world, but here any/all sail boat class associations are registered as "non profit" organizations and as such they are all (class associations) non professional I.E. amateur by law, (even the Tornado association)

"Professional Class" was probably a bad way of expressing myself.....

The point I was trying to make was compare the level of development / refinement that goes into a class..... Time and funding.

Compare the time, resources and funding that go into development programs for the Tornado, A Class, F18 to the likes of classes such as the F14, F16.

How many Alpha Omega F14s are currently out there...... 3 or so????? Darryl you can answer this... I have no idea.

How many Stealths are out the...... Some of the UK boys may be able to help out here.

How much time and funding is allocated to their development programs. To what extent do they test their product..... Tank testing???? How experienced are those doing the research in controlled environments and gathering data.

Try not to take any offence..... I am asking the question.
The worst part about forums is that you can not gauge ones tone in the conversation and miss-interpret what a person is trying to say.

I for one completely understood in what reference you used the term "professional" Steve, although it did tend to sound a little elitist, but there are obviously many others who didn't understand\ and were taking the reference "literally". As for the development that I have put into F14's I have to say generally I have put in over forty years of research and development together with many hundreds of thousands of dollars (actually much more, and in cold hard cash), and what can I attribute directly towards the F14? I have spent 9 years research and development together with some twenty various hull prototypes, many rig configurations, over 5 years of computer simulations, many different finished sets of moulds (all except two sets destroyed after they fulfilled their purpose) many C/B and rudder variations and their appropriate moulds, and more, much more. To put an actual dollar price on it is difficult but to say that it has cost me more than $300,000 would be very conservative.
When “boats” of all description are your ruling, life time, all encompassing “passion” Steve, you are obliged to follow every possible avenue to succeed at your project, and it is not a matter of spending/committing “enough” to get by, the commitment has to be total or else why bother in the first place. If I wasn’t totally committed I would have just gone out and bought some boat that some one else had made and “just go sailing” instead.
When it comes to a comparison between the time, money, research and development and other resources that I have put into the design of the Alpha Omega F14 and the equivalent that has gone into the development of any other comparable craft, I feel confident in saying that I doubt very much if “they” would come out on the plus side of the ledger against my involvement both developmental and fiscal.
Oh and just one small point, the actual numbers of anything that makes its way into the public domain, bears no relationship to the amount of funds, time, research, and commitment, put into its development.
If the reverse was the case, (as you seem to imply Steve), then we would have to say that “they couldn’t have spent much time, money, or development on the space shuttles could they? There has never been more than a handful of them ever built”

Very good Darryl...... Thanks for giving me an insight into your development. We know manufactures in such classes as F18, Tornado ect which are not strict SMOD invest a LOT in research and development. Interesting to hear how far you have gone. There are a lot of other manufactures that have done a LOT less then you.

It is a shame there is not a bigger market for new HP 14 footers in OZ. They do look exciting as do the F16s.

Please remember..... I am not making allegations but am asking a question.

Just "Keep the faith" Steve,
I always get pleasure from your postings, I don't always agree with them, but they actually make me have to stop and think at times and that in itself is "all good".

Cheers mate..... I am not always right and can be hard to convince, but always enjoy analyzing things and having a chin wag here.

Plan to come down to SA next season and will have to bring the boat with me. Would be great to see your set up down there. My twin brother lives in Adelaide and am planning to go down and visit……… and coming back with a boot load of wine.
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Shame you can not make it to Forster, but great to see the AOs coming.

Ohh my god !!! THERE ARE TWO OF YOU??????

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.... And the other is very close to you <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />