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Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Laruffa] #85885
10/04/06 07:44 AM
10/04/06 07:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Yep, from my experiences, Scooby's post is correct.

I have writen somewhere here before that the Capricorn and I believe all these new designs (Blade, Infusion) give a false sense of security for new sailors. They feel like they get up and plane on the down winds and give you the impression that you can push them a lot more.

When the hull tips forwards past the horizontal, it can dive pretty quikly. It is just a matter of getting to know the boats limits and finding the point to back off.

Myself and 2 other Tornado sailors from our club, all have moved across to the Capricorn and we all agree on one thing..... You can not push the Capricorn as hard off the breeze as you can the T. The extra 2 foot of bow on the T makes a big difference. All 3 of us tripped over on the top mark rounding often when we first got the boats. Leant pretty quickly to not throgh it around the top quiet as agressivly as the T.

As for the centerboards breaking on the Infusion..... Well the Capricorn also had this problem initialy whilst the manufacture was still working out the loads the long skinny boards were under. Since then, Goodall futher developed the Caps boards, adding more carbon in the high load areas and now seems to have fixed the problem. Expect the Infusion to go down the same road.


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Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: ] #85886
10/04/06 07:49 AM
10/04/06 07:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Quote
Tornado Alive recently stated in another thread in another forum (SA), that with the use of a transom foot strap and a chicken line he has never stuffed his Capricorn down wind, so they can't be that bad.


We do not use the toe strap, just the chicken line.

We have stuffed the bows on the Cap and T, however never cartwheeled whilst using the chicken line on either boat.

Spoke to Gashby about this on the weekend and his experiences..... He said they have found the same results, however they have cartwheeled dispite the chicken line on rare ocasions. Must of stuffed it big time..... Or may be my 95 kg crew hanging of the back helps keep it upright a bit more <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #85887
10/04/06 10:11 AM
10/04/06 10:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
Quote
Or may be my 95 kg crew hanging of the back helps keep it upright a bit more <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Hooray for the big dudes! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Jay

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #85888
10/04/06 02:08 PM
10/04/06 02:08 PM

A
Anonymous
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A



We've only gone down the mine on the Tiger once since fitting a foot strap almost two years ago and given that we went down so hard that I was thrown clear of the boat from my location sitting on the tramp, I'd be surprised if a chicken line for my crew (92kg) would have made much difference.

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: ] #85889
10/04/06 02:36 PM
10/04/06 02:36 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
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*hugs and kisses for my N20 bows*

what is this "pitchpoling" and "going down the mine" that ya'll speak of? :P

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: MauganN20] #85890
10/04/06 03:59 PM
10/04/06 03:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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uk
Maugan
i know what you mean about the 20, but we did manage to go down the mine on ours quite often, once it came up with shoal of tiny fish on the tramp! I can mostly put it down to an early model baggy nylon spinnaker that really did us no favours,it eventually brought the mast down in a nice deep mine!
I have never felt 'safer' downwind than on the Infusion, even with only 60kg on the wire behind me. We did a worlds qualifier race this season [against tigers and caps] and the wind got up and up until no-one could put their kites up. At the end, we looked behind us after the down-wind finish and we were the only boat left standing! 3 guys went through their own mainsails in that one.

Paul GBR7


Yes i know the worlds are open and we dont need to qualify for slots, thats just how we rank our UK events.


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: MauganN20] #85891
10/04/06 10:50 PM
10/04/06 10:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 44
new2sailin2 Offline
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I would like to raise the comments by MauganN20

Nacra is putting out a boat a day on ONE MOLD. There are undoubtedly going to be quality control problems with gelcoat not be allowed to cure completely and so forth -- the factory is trying to keep up with demand.

Please this is not a Nacra, Capricorn or Hobie bash just a comment. Are we as consumers willing to accept that manufacturers can knowingly make a product that is sub standard and then support them?

I believe for most of us, sailing is a “luxury”. After we pay the mortgage, the credit card bills and general living cost the rest of the money goes to out “luxury” items such as sailing boats. A new Nacra Infusion is reasonably expensive (as is all new F18 so I am not saying it is more expensive or attacking their pricing). Surely as a consumer I would expect a quality boat that has gone through some quality control. For me the excuse “we have only one mould and we are trying to produce as many boats as possible to keep up with demand” This is really saying as a company “we are trying to maximise our profits by reducing quality control and producing as many boats as possible while the market will buy it.”

As I said this is not a Nacra bash I am just wondering what we the sailors/consumers are willing to accept boats knowing there is a high chance of failure. Also in a few years a lower resale as the buyers say “well that is one for the first batch of boats and we know the quality control was not there so there is higher chance of failure”.

Maybe I am wrong and people are prepared to accept lesser quality control for the product they want.

As I said this is not bashing any manufacturer just what the sailors are willing to accept.

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: new2sailin2] #85892
10/05/06 03:54 AM
10/05/06 03:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Quote
I would like to raise the comments by MauganN20

Nacra is putting out a boat a day on ONE MOLD. There are undoubtedly going to be quality control problems


I don't see the problem, any factory will try and do a mold a day. Lay it up today and knock it out tomorrow morning is what they all do. That would give each hull about 20hours in the mold. How long do you want?


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: TEAMVMG] #85893
10/05/06 04:53 AM
10/05/06 04:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 52
G
GBR6 Offline
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I changed my Nacra F18 for a Capricorn just before the UK Nationals. First impressions were that it was faster upwind
but pretty similar downwind, it is however much lighter to steer than the Nacra. The training day and first day of racing proper at the Nationals were fine but then the wind just kept picking up on each subsequent day and I found it very hard to sail downwind in conditions that, while challenging, I would have been happy with in the Nacra. Saying this, the fast teams on the Capricorns had no problems at all and so I would summize that the problems I had were down to a)technique + ability and b)setup. So while I pitchpoled my Cap more times that I want to remember I think this was more me than the boat, the others seemed fine - and it's worth noting that it wasn't just me going swimming, the eventual winner pitchpoled his Tiger.

TMG mentions the earlier qualifier in Pevensey when the wind reached 39knots - I don't think that James and Gillian capsized their Cap, but retired after their jib blew out.

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: GBR6] #85894
10/05/06 06:30 AM
10/05/06 06:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
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GBR6,

Are you coming to Grafham for the Open / F18 Inlands ?


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: scooby_simon] #85895
10/05/06 06:57 AM
10/05/06 06:57 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 52
G
GBR6 Offline
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Scooby - that's the plan, along with at least one A.

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: GBR6] #85896
10/05/06 08:07 AM
10/05/06 08:07 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
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Quote
“we are trying to maximise our profits by reducing quality control and producing as many boats as possible while the market will buy it.”


Its more like "We're trying to get peoples' boats to them (that they've already paid for) before the next <insert major regatta here> and quality may suffer."

Let us not forget this boat is employing a new building method, and there are bound to be wrinkles to iron out in the process.

As for the N20, We've never pitched it going downwind with the spin up, even in some pretty knarly sea states *knocks on wood*. We have pitched it while beam reaching when my lard-butt was too far forward during a "between the condos, offshore gonzo 30 knot blast" (Quote from Jake Kohl).

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: GBR6] #85897
10/05/06 08:11 AM
10/05/06 08:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Carpal Tunnel

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Scooby - that's the plan, along with at least one A.


Good ho !

Looks like I'll need to let the club know they need to buy more beer !


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: scooby_simon] #85898
10/05/06 08:27 AM
10/05/06 08:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Jalani  Offline
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Essex, UK
Quote
Quote
Scooby - that's the plan, along with at least one A.


Good ho !

Looks like I'll need to let the club know they need to buy more beer !


Is this on top of the more they needed to order because Mark_P and Sailwave are coming? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: new2sailin2] #85899
10/05/06 09:57 AM
10/05/06 09:57 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 81
F18OxJ Offline
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F18OxJ  Offline
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Quote
As I said this is not a Nacra bash I am just wondering what we the sailors/consumers are willing to accept boats knowing there is a high chance of failure. Also in a few years a lower resale as the buyers say &#8220;well that is one for the first batch of boats and we know the quality control was not there so there is higher chance of failure&#8221;.

Maybe I am wrong and people are prepared to accept lesser quality control for the product they want.

As I said this is not bashing any manufacturer just what the sailors are willing to accept.


I agree, it serves no one to make excuses for defective work. How many rudders and daggerboards have we seen expode this year? And that was not the first mast to go either. We should be demanding that these issues be addressed instead of making excuses. Whether you're sailing Hobie, Nacra, Capricorn or whatever I think it's important to make sure we provide the proper 'feedback' in the hopes seeing a better product next year.

And Maugan - I have lost the mainsheet several times on my Tiger without breaking the mast (I did bend one).

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Jalani] #85900
10/05/06 10:03 AM
10/05/06 10:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

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Quote
Quote
Quote
Scooby - that's the plan, along with at least one A.


Good ho !

Looks like I'll need to let the club know they need to buy more beer !


Is this on top of the more they needed to order because Mark_P and Sailwave are coming? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Umm, I thnink we'll need a bigger bar....


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: scooby_simon] #85901
10/05/06 10:31 AM
10/05/06 10:31 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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My post wasn't meant to be an "excuse." It was meant to inform people as to why these problems may be occurring.

I've seen some blown up boards, I know they had some issues during Alter Cup as well. Its really sad to be honest.

If you're scared of the quality, then don't buy their boats.

Quote
And Maugan - I have lost the mainsheet several times on my Tiger without breaking the mast (I did bend one).


Anymore ancedotal evidence to throw on the fire there? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Jalani] #85902
10/05/06 10:32 AM
10/05/06 10:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 254
Gower, Wales, UK
sailwave Offline
enthusiast
sailwave  Offline
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Posts: 254
Gower, Wales, UK
Quote

Is this on top of the more they needed to order because Mark_P and Sailwave are coming? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You know as well as I do it's all in the name as science; evidence to date strongly suggests that Mark's performance on day 2 is directly related to the quantity of alcohol he consumes on the evening of day 1.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: MauganN20] #85903
10/05/06 10:44 AM
10/05/06 10:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
Eric Anderson Offline
member
Eric Anderson  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
Resin infuion is not at all a new building method, The techniques for doing it are well established by now. Jack would like you to believe the they are the first to build cats this way. They are not.
Nacra has never been a quality first outfit.
The flippin boats weigh 400 lbs. They should be bulletproof.

Eric

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Eric Anderson] #85904
10/05/06 01:32 PM
10/05/06 01:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 6
H
HobieF18 Offline
stranger
HobieF18  Offline
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H

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 6
I heard that Nacra is not using the Infusion process to make the new F18 (infusion). Is this true!

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