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Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: HobieF18] #85905
10/05/06 01:59 PM
10/05/06 01:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Quote
I heard that Nacra is not using the Infusion process to make the new F18 (infusion). Is this true!


You guys are something. No, it's not true. I've been to the factory and seen infusion in process. Some of these posts are getting a little slanderous...

http://www.teamseacats.com/2006/04/13/infused/


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Jake] #85906
10/05/06 02:23 PM
10/05/06 02:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 6
H
HobieF18 Offline
stranger
HobieF18  Offline
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H

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Posts: 6
Jake,
Thanks for the post.

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Eric Anderson] #85907
10/05/06 03:46 PM
10/05/06 03:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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pitchpoledave  Offline
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Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
What? I guess you would rather pay Marstrom prices. The quality that PC puts out is very good. Much better than some of the other stuff out there. Another well known company is in a law suite right now about their "quality". As for the rudders breaking because not enough carbon, that is a design issue, not a build quality problem.

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: pitchpoledave] #85908
10/05/06 09:58 PM
10/05/06 09:58 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
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I heard HobieF18 is a toolshed.

(not a just a tool, or a tool bag, but the whole friggin shed)

Quote
would like you to believe the they are the first to build cats this way. They are not.


OHHH how ignorant am I! I must walk around regattas and gaze my eyes upon resin-infused performance/nacra catamarans all the time, since yaknow, its so popular and Nacra has been doing it for a while....

I swear....

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: MauganN20] #85909
10/05/06 11:59 PM
10/05/06 11:59 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah

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Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Maugan..... You spend far to much time on SA <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #85910
10/06/06 04:07 AM
10/06/06 04:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Nacra has been pretending they were the first to use resin infusion for their beach cats for a while now. They are most definately not.

An interesting detail is that more and more sources are claiming the the other builders have dropped building using this method, and it is now said that Nacra has stopped doing it with the A2 as well. Problems concerning proper wetting out of remote area's. Other builders are finding they can produced better quality boats with the old technology then with the resin infusion proces. So that took care of the claimed advantages of resin infusion. It seems to work for thicker, heavier and more low tech laminates found on cruisers and powerboats but not on lightweight thin laminate racing beach catamarans.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: scooby_simon] #85911
10/06/06 05:31 AM
10/06/06 05:31 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
old hand
Mark P  Offline
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Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Quote
Umm, I thnink we'll need a bigger bar....

And an even bigger padlock to lock the locl constabulary out. Unless they sail of course.
Wayne Marlow and the three Scots are joining us so may wish to consider hiring a Marquee!!!


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Wouter] #85912
10/06/06 05:49 AM
10/06/06 05:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote


Nacra has been pretending they were the first to use resin infusion for their beach cats for a while now. They are most definately not.


Wouter


I hear you say this time and time again - where exactly did Nacra claim to be the first catamaran builder using resin infusion? I never heard it. In fact, they didn't really care to call the boat "Infusion".


Jake Kohl
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Mark P] #85913
10/06/06 06:03 AM
10/06/06 06:03 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
old hand
Mark P  Offline
old hand

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Sorry forgot the thread. IMO "pitchpoling capricorns" It's as easy as the simplest mistake, like nearly every other beach cat! not pitchpoling them is down to the pure skill and team work of the helm and crew, again like any other beach cat. This idea that just because the bows don't take on the same appearance as the (dated) Tiger shouldn't automatically send out shockwaves that the Caps bows are under volumed. I realy enjoy watching the development of Cat hulls from what I consider to be old designs such as the Unicorn, Shearwater and to some extent Tornado right through to the new Auz Flyers and Caps. These designers I hope are setting new benchmarks and In the future people will soon forget that the people who first sailed these designs had to get use to a different technique due to the advanced hull shape.


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Mark P] #85914
10/06/06 06:51 AM
10/06/06 06:51 AM
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Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
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Quote
I hear you say this time and time again - where exactly did Nacra claim to be the first catamaran builder using resin infusion? I never heard it. In fact, they didn't really care to call the boat "Infusion".



Any my point is, that while it may not be the first cat to be infused, its the first time PC/Nacra has done it.

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: MauganN20] #85915
10/06/06 08:09 AM
10/06/06 08:09 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 6
H
HobieF18 Offline
stranger
HobieF18  Offline
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H

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 6
Maugan N20,
Lets not go POSTAL on us or me.
Unless you are a Postal employee.

-------

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: MauganN20] #85916
10/06/06 09:09 AM
10/06/06 09:09 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 503
BrianK Offline
addict
BrianK  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 503
Quote
Quote
I hear you say this time and time again - where exactly did Nacra claim to be the first catamaran builder using resin infusion? I never heard it. In fact, they didn't really care to call the boat "Infusion".



Any my point is, that while it may not be the first cat to be infused, its the first time PC/Nacra has done it.


Looks like you picked the wrong week to stop breathing toxic fumes.

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: BrianK] #85917
10/06/06 10:12 AM
10/06/06 10:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
So, what are the most common manufacture methods for high performance cats these days? Not being a builder, I've only heard about:

Foam core layup
Vacuum molding
Resin Infusion (I'll have to look that up)
Resin impregnated wood

I'm sure I just offended just about every builder, but a HELPFUL discussion on construction methods may help us commoners.

And before I get the flame-fest... I'm doing a search..


Jay

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #85918
10/06/06 10:47 AM
10/06/06 10:47 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
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BANNED
Quote
Looks like you picked the wrong week to stop breathing toxic fumes.


Those toxic fumes keep the voices in my head quiet.

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #85919
10/06/06 11:34 AM
10/06/06 11:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
Eric Anderson Offline
member
Eric Anderson  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 160
Connecticut
lamination basics as I understand them. Note: I am not in the boat building buisness so this is just my take on the whole deal.

Most beach cat hulls are composed of a paint/gel coat layer then outer skin then a lower density core then an inner skin.

The outer layer is gel coat (thickened polyester or vinal ester resin with UV inhibitors and coloring added. Or it is a catalyzed linear polyurethane paint (Awlgrip for example)

The skins must be able to withstand tension, compression, offer impact resistance, and adhere to the outer paint/gel coat. They are typically made of a woven fiber (fiberglass/ Kevlar/carbon) held in a matrix of resin either epoxy, polyester or vinyl ester resin.

The core is a low density material that must resist shear loads, not dent too easily (high crush strength), bond to the skins, and not weigh too much. Not absorb water Common core materials are foams in various densities and types, end gain balsa, expanded cell nomex (honeycomb).

Layup methods in order of decreasing expense/quality

1. Prepreg/autoclave cure
2. Prepreg hot vacuum bag cure
3. Resin infusion
4. Wet layup vacuum bagged
5. Wet layup not vacuum bagged

1. The cloth comes preimpregnated (usually with epoxy) with the exact fiber to resin ratio for optimum strength. Material is shipped and stored cold and then gets flexible at room temp. After the part is layed up in the mold, it is placed in a vacuum bag and placed in an autoclave generally cures at 100+ C at 5-6 atmospheres of pressure. Yields very good compression strength which is why this is used for making carbon masts and beams.

2. Same as above, just heated with only 1 atmosphere of pressure on the bag. Slight loss of compression strength.

3. All the glass, core, etc is layed up dry without resin. It is placed in a vacuum bag with multiple inlets for resin and be pulled by vacuum through the fiberglass towards the vacuum source. The advantage is low waste, the ability to work slowly on getting the fibers into place ahead of time. It requires a resin that does not cure before it is fully wet out lower viscosity, and if you are not careful there can be dry spots that never get wet out. This may not be visible if you sprayed gel coat into the mold first.

4. Wet out the glass by hand with a brush and squeegee, place in a vacuum bag and cure at room temp. The breather absorbs most of the excess resin

5. Wet out the glass by hand with a brush and squeegee



Cloths in order of expense and quality costs are per ~6 oz 50 wide cloth

Carbon fiber cloth Highest stiffness (Tensile strength) (comes in different grades of stiffness) 40-60 $ yard
Kevlar Best impact resistance good Tensile strength 30-40 $ yard
S glass fiberglass very good impact resistance Moderate Tensile strength 30% stronger 15 % stiffer then E glass. 17$ yard
E glass fiberglass Lowest Tensile strength very inexpensive 5.50$ yard

Resin in order of performance

Epoxy 40-75$ gallon
Epoxy resin is known in the marine industry for its incredible toughness and bonding strength. Quality epoxy resins stick to other materials with 2,000-p.s.i. vs. only 500-p.s.i. for vinyl ester resins and even less for polyesters. In areas that must be able to flex and strain WITH the fibers without micro-fracturing, epoxy resins offer much greater capability. Cured epoxy tends to be very resistant to moisture absorption. Epoxy resin will bond dissimilar or already-cured materials which makes repair work that is very reliable and strong. Epoxy actually bonds to all sorts of fibers very well and also offers excellent results in repair-ability when it is used to bond two different materials together. Initally, epoxy resin is much more difficult to work with and requires additional skill by the technicians who handle it.
Vinylester resin
Vinylester resins are stronger than polyester resins and cheaper than epoxy resins. Vinylester resins utilize a polyester resin type of cross-linking molecules in the bonding process. Vinylester is a hybrid form of polyester resin which has been toughened with epoxy molecules within the main moleculer structure. Vinyester resins offer better resistance to moisture absorption than polyester resins but it's downside is in the use of liquid styrene to thin it out (not good to breath that stuff) and its sensitivity to atmospheric moisture and temperature. Sometimes it won't cure if the atmospheric conditions are not right. It also has difficulty in bonding dissimilar and already-cured materials. It is also known that vinylester resins bond very well to fiberglass, but offer a poor bond to kevlar and carbon fibers due to the nature of those two more exotic fibers. Due to the touchy nature of vinylester resin, careful surface preparation is necessary if reasonable adhesion is desired for any repair work.
Poly ester is the cheapest resin available in the marine industry and offers the poorest adhesion, has the highest water absorption, highest shrinkage, and high VOC's. Polyester resin is only compatible with fiberglass fibers and is best suited to building things that are not weight sensitive.

Outer coverings. There are 2 choices gel coat, and paint.
Good paint is tougher and lighter but not as thick. Awlgrip is an excellent product for usage but it is nasty stuff. Harder to match repairs.
Gel coat is cheaper and thicker so it can be scraped a bit without exposing the skin. Easier to repair small patches, hard to refinish a whole boat.

Back to work

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Eric Anderson] #85920
10/06/06 11:41 AM
10/06/06 11:41 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote
lamination basics as I understand them. Note: I am not in the boat building buisness so this is just my take on the whole deal.

Most beach cat hulls are composed of a paint/gel coat layer then outer skin then a lower density core then an inner skin.

The outer layer is gel coat (thickened polyester or vinal ester resin with UV inhibitors and coloring added. Or it is a catalyzed linear polyurethane paint (Awlgrip for example)

The skins must be able to withstand tension, compression, offer impact resistance, and adhere to the outer paint/gel coat. They are typically made of a woven fiber (fiberglass/ Kevlar/carbon) held in a matrix of resin either epoxy, polyester or vinyl ester resin.

The core is a low density material that must resist shear loads, not dent too easily (high crush strength), bond to the skins, and not weigh too much. Not absorb water Common core materials are foams in various densities and types, end gain balsa, expanded cell nomex (honeycomb).

Layup methods in order of decreasing expense/quality

1. Prepreg/autoclave cure
2. Prepreg hot vacuum bag cure
3. Resin infusion
4. Wet layup vacuum bagged
5. Wet layup not vacuum bagged

1. The cloth comes preimpregnated (usually with epoxy) with the exact fiber to resin ratio for optimum strength. Material is shipped and stored cold and then gets flexible at room temp. After the part is layed up in the mold, it is placed in a vacuum bag and placed in an autoclave generally cures at 100+ C at 5-6 atmospheres of pressure. Yields very good compression strength which is why this is used for making carbon masts and beams.

2. Same as above, just heated with only 1 atmosphere of pressure on the bag. Slight loss of compression strength.

3. All the glass, core, etc is layed up dry without resin. It is placed in a vacuum bag with multiple inlets for resin and be pulled by vacuum through the fiberglass towards the vacuum source. The advantage is low waste, the ability to work slowly on getting the fibers into place ahead of time. It requires a resin that does not cure before it is fully wet out lower viscosity, and if you are not careful there can be dry spots that never get wet out. This may not be visible if you sprayed gel coat into the mold first.

4. Wet out the glass by hand with a brush and squeegee, place in a vacuum bag and cure at room temp. The breather absorbs most of the excess resin

5. Wet out the glass by hand with a brush and squeegee



Cloths in order of expense and quality costs are per ~6 oz 50 wide cloth

Carbon fiber cloth Highest stiffness (Tensile strength) (comes in different grades of stiffness) 40-60 $ yard
Kevlar Best impact resistance good Tensile strength 30-40 $ yard
S glass fiberglass very good impact resistance Moderate Tensile strength 30% stronger 15 % stiffer then E glass. 17$ yard
E glass fiberglass Lowest Tensile strength very inexpensive 5.50$ yard

Resin in order of performance

Epoxy 40-75$ gallon
Epoxy resin is known in the marine industry for its incredible toughness and bonding strength. Quality epoxy resins stick to other materials with 2,000-p.s.i. vs. only 500-p.s.i. for vinyl ester resins and even less for polyesters. In areas that must be able to flex and strain WITH the fibers without micro-fracturing, epoxy resins offer much greater capability. Cured epoxy tends to be very resistant to moisture absorption. Epoxy resin will bond dissimilar or already-cured materials which makes repair work that is very reliable and strong. Epoxy actually bonds to all sorts of fibers very well and also offers excellent results in repair-ability when it is used to bond two different materials together. Initally, epoxy resin is much more difficult to work with and requires additional skill by the technicians who handle it.
Vinylester resin
Vinylester resins are stronger than polyester resins and cheaper than epoxy resins. Vinylester resins utilize a polyester resin type of cross-linking molecules in the bonding process. Vinylester is a hybrid form of polyester resin which has been toughened with epoxy molecules within the main moleculer structure. Vinyester resins offer better resistance to moisture absorption than polyester resins but it's downside is in the use of liquid styrene to thin it out (not good to breath that stuff) and its sensitivity to atmospheric moisture and temperature. Sometimes it won't cure if the atmospheric conditions are not right. It also has difficulty in bonding dissimilar and already-cured materials. It is also known that vinylester resins bond very well to fiberglass, but offer a poor bond to kevlar and carbon fibers due to the nature of those two more exotic fibers. Due to the touchy nature of vinylester resin, careful surface preparation is necessary if reasonable adhesion is desired for any repair work.
Poly ester is the cheapest resin available in the marine industry and offers the poorest adhesion, has the highest water absorption, highest shrinkage, and high VOC's. Polyester resin is only compatible with fiberglass fibers and is best suited to building things that are not weight sensitive.

Outer coverings. There are 2 choices gel coat, and paint.
Good paint is tougher and lighter but not as thick. Awlgrip is an excellent product for usage but it is nasty stuff. Harder to match repairs.
Gel coat is cheaper and thicker so it can be scraped a bit without exposing the skin. Easier to repair small patches, hard to refinish a whole boat.

Back to work


You lost me at wet layup.

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #85921
10/06/06 12:07 PM
10/06/06 12:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
So, what are the most common manufacture methods for high performance cats these days? Not being a builder, I've only heard about:

Foam core layup
Vacuum molding
Resin Infusion (I'll have to look that up)
Resin impregnated wood

I'm sure I just offended just about every builder, but a HELPFUL discussion on construction methods may help us commoners.

And before I get the flame-fest... I'm doing a search..


Ouch....

OK...manufacturing methods for producing a catamaran (or anything) from a female mold can fall into two basic categories. Hand Laid or Vacuum Bagged. "Foam Core" is about having foam between layers of fiberglass and you can build a boat with foam core construction using either method.

Hand laid hulls are exactly that. Gelcoat is sprayed in the mold and allowed to tack up. Precut pieces of fiberglass are laid on top of the gel coat and wetted out with resin. Then a foam core is placed on top of the wet fiberglass. Then more fiberglass on top of the foam core is laid in place and impregnated with resin.

For a simple vacuum bag operation, the same previous processes would take place. After all this glass is 'wet' a perforated layer of plastic goes on top of it all, then a layer of absorbant stuffing sheet (usually poly-stuffing), and finally the vacuum bag. A small port is installed in the bag and vacuum applied. As the air is evacuated from inside the bag, the ambient air pressure starts pressing equally around the mold and squeezes excess resin from the laminate through the perforated plastic layer into the stuffing. You end up with a laminate with less resin, less weight, and more fiber density resulting in a potentially stronger part.

Resin infusion simply takes vacuum bagging to a new level. You still spray the gelcoat in the mold but you lay in the fiberglass, core, and reinforcements in the mold dry. You don't put in the perforated plastic layer or the stuffing - only the vacuum bag. You pull a vacuum on the dry layup and once the bag is well sealed (and you've chased all the leaks), you connect an open pail of resin to the center of the bag in several places (where ports have been pre-arranged) and let it start to suck the resin in. The resin will slowly work it's way through the laminate. Once one area of the mold is fully impregnated with resin, you clamp off that port while the rest of the mold infuses. Resin infusion uses less materials (no more perforated layer or stuffing), you have more time to lay the materials in and get them right, and you get a very controlable amount of resin in the layup. The drawbacks are that the port and flow arrangement is very critical to get resin in all the nooks and crannies, the curing time of the resin (affected largely by ambient and mold temperature) is very critical (you don't need it to start gelling before everything is infused!), and the (low) viscosity of the resin is super-critical.


Jake Kohl
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: iMax] #85922
10/06/06 01:47 PM
10/06/06 01:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39
I
iMax Offline OP
newbie
iMax  Offline OP
newbie
I

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39
sorry to all of you! my only intention was to get info how the capricorn behaves with the kite up. i dind't want to smoke you with (poly)fumes. in the time this discussion has taken i've made my mind up. i'll try to sell my nacra f18 (which is a real good deal!!!) and trade it in for a capricorn. i'm comfident that i have enough skills to take my wife for a spin at windforce 6. i hope i'll be able to let you know how i like the capricorn after the long winter. (that newzealand tornado movie, in the other post, might help me through the winter.

Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: iMax] #85923
10/06/06 04:49 PM
10/06/06 04:49 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
old hand
Mark P  Offline
old hand

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
farts in a thunder storm


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: pitchpoling capricorns? [Re: Mark P] #85924
10/06/06 08:10 PM
10/06/06 08:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 53
CT Shoreline
W
Wet1 Offline
journeyman
Wet1  Offline
journeyman
W

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 53
CT Shoreline
Nice write-ups Eric and Jake!

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