This is thread with the aim of teasing out advice on how to avoid pitch-poling when bearing away at the top mark.

Having once been thrown through a new Tiger Pentex mainsail when bearing away at a top mark, I have become careful when bearing away in strong wind. Boards were up, and we never found out what went wrong. But we obviously did not play it right. I would like to challenge you all to present your best and/or secret advice and tips for strong-wind bear aways.

In strong wind:
1. Do you bear away really quick with an abrupt rudder movement
or do you slowly tease the boat down in strong wind?
2. Do you ease the mainsheet and traveler to dump power
or do you keep mainsail hard sheeted to stall it when changing direction?
3. Does letting the jibsheet out to "open the slot" do anything at all?
4. Do you wait for the crew (to finnish hoisting the spinnaker and) to get to the back of the boat?
5. What do you do in 30 knots wind?

Please, let this be a thread on technique and not on repairing the boat (or how builders make hulls).

Stein

Stein,

In 12-18 knots, you need to really move to the back of the boat (both you and your crew) as you make the transition from upwind to downwind. If you do it right, you can fly the hull through the transition and put 100 yards on the next boat. As you bear away, have both crew move to as close to the rear beam as possible. As the speed picks up, you really should not ease your sails much at all as the apparent wind will stay forward. The control to release during this transition is the mast rotation. Release it to 80-90 degrees and you will feel the boat stay powered as you steer down. Bleed down with the speed as much as you can before you make the move to set the chute. We're talking about 5-10 seconds of sailing. Once you are downwind ease the traveller about half down but keep some mainsheet tension to act as a backstay as you hoist and fill the chute. Reset the traveller once the chute is flying and the boat is up to speed.

In over 18 knots, it is difficult to do this as there can be simply too much power. What you can do is come off the wire as you prepare for the turn, both crew come all the way aft, release the traveller to full ease, ease at least 12"-18" of mainsheet tension, and then keep the jib trimmed properly as you turn down. The weight shift aft and releasing of the traveller should allow you to make a safe turn down.

Most pictures I have seen of crews pitchpoling as they turn from upwind to downwind in both moderate and heavy air have been a result of not being far enough aft and keeping the mainsail too powered during the transition.

Also keep in mind that if you stall the top of the mainsail along with the chute in heavy air downwind, you are in the "death zone" that can result in a fast pitchpole. Keep the flow working on both sails. Drop your traveller slightly (maybe 6") to bleed some power if you feel the need. This should allow you to work with around 6" of mainsheet tension to keep the top of the mainsail working and prevent it from stalling. Your crew has to also trim the spinnaker in synch with you (i.e. if you turn down, he must ease to prevent a stall).

Good luck.

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230
ex F-18HT driver

You get your butt back on the beach and go sailing on a shortboard with 4.0 m2 sail.

Bob makes great points - reads like a coach's manual. Both of my last pitches were the result of the crew not being aft with the skipper as we turned downwind in over 20 knots and choppy conditions. Had I not been so anxious to get the 'chute up, we might not have gone over. In big air, I think Bob's steps are correct - make the rounding, control the turn down from aft while easing rotation, then set the 'chute. And don't forget to unclench. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I stay on trap around the top mark.

Crew cleats the main and hands me the traveller end of the main as he goes in off trap. I go back to the transom. he does all the hard work etc then comes back and sits on the back beam. We swap spots on the first gybe.

We've never gone in at the top mark (touch wood).

Hope that helps, I'm off to the club for a twilight race.

Bob,

The force by the mainsail driving the rig forwards is the cause of a pitch-pole. In addition, when the bows bury and stop the boat, the momentum of the rig adds to the forward-driving forces.

I am still in doubt:
If you want to depower the top section of the mainsail, the part that contributes the most moment (force*arm) to driving the rig forward, then would it not be most efficient to stall the sail?
When releasing the traveller (and mainsheet) you prevent stalling the sail when bearing away, don't you?

Your main advice bring crew-weight to the back of the boat, I assume we all agree on.

Thank you for a most constructive answer!

Stein

Agree. However, my smallest sail is a 4.7....

But it would be nice to feel confident out there also when the wind really picks up.

Stein

We let out on the jib, and feel that it helps to bring the bow up, dont know why tough.
Otherwise we do it much like Bob describes, except that crew often goes in a bit before the offset mark to start setting the spi. If it is really windy, we let the main twist off and use the traveller for control. If it is reasonably windy, not exessive, skipper controls 'hull altitude' with the mainsheet.

Ref: http://www.tornadoforbundet.se/images/gallery/_DSC3197.JPG


Sailing in strong winds is mostly practice and getting (over)confident. Small cats are able to take on incredible amounts of weather if the crew can handle the boat. Turning downwind or returning upwind is one of the difficult points, especially if you are sailing around marks and want to do it tactically. But keeping speed up, a light but firm hand on the tiller and using the main traveller+sheet as power control are the keys to it in my opinion.

Wimp.

I'll apologize in advance.

Race a Nacra I20!!! The bows are awesome!

Somebody had to say it. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In most winds, especially big winds, more than 20, we take the top mark a bit high while coming to it. I would like to, if I could, get about 1 1/2 boat lengths high of the mark.

Before my crew goes in she eases the jib to the downwind setting. She goes into the boat, staying far back and readies with the spinnaker halyard.

By staying high of the mark it will force you to make a carving turn instead of a slam and you will be right next to the mark while you are passing it giving you back that boat and and half length. Send the main traveller down to the corner casting as you continue turning downwind. Do not sheet out.

In most conditions we sail Dead Down Wind to get the chute up as fast a possible. I rarely have someone on the boat capable of hoisting (read strong enough) when the boat is on a reach. As we come from DDW to the sailing angle we are able to ease ourselves into the strong breeze. When settled, the main traveller and chute come in at the same time.

Later,
Dan

The problem with stalling the sails is it is very slow and you have an extremely narrow steering band. Lets say you keep the traveller centered and drive very deep effectively stalling the mainsail. You will be going slow and might feel somewhat under control. However if you were to steer up and unstall the sail, suddenly the mainsail will really load up and because the boatspeed is slow that creates the condition where the rig wants to go over the bows. Think twist and flow in the top of the mainsail. If you maintain that, you minimze the chances of pitchpoling. Always use twist to depower the top of the sail.

It's trickier flying a chute because you have so much more power in the entire sailplan and you have to keep some sheet tension to keep the mast in one piece. Dropping the traveller 4"-6" can make a huge difference from where you keep it sailing in moderate conditions. You can practice a lot of this in 10-15 knots air to see how the boat and sails respond.

Regarding blowing the jib to make the turn from upwind to downwind, I disagree if you have dropped the traveller and eased the mainsail in conditions over 16-18 knots. The crew will need to follow the turn with correct jib trim (avoid the stall) and that will keep things under control very nicely. Correct jib trim will pull the bows down. I use to sail Tornados and P-19's and the fine bows on those boats could be scary to turn down in big breeze.

Lots of pitchpoles occur due to incorrect weight placement and poor sail trim. The faster you go, the less loaded the rig is. Mainsail twist and boatspeed in heavy air are your friends. Stalled sails and going slow are the devil!


Bob Hodges

I did not say blow the jib, flogging is nerve wrecking and slow, but trim it out from the upwind setting. Our experience is that the transition from upwind to downwind is both faster and less prone to dig in the bows if the jib is eased. These days its actually kind of hard to let the jib out too far in a blow. the selftackers limit the angle and the purchase systems usually run out of room or line.
If you look at the picture I posted a link to earlier, you can see how we have trimmed the jib sheet to open the jib and give it a good angle. Top of main twisted out while traveller is mostly in. This was in solid double trapeeze conditions upwind and crew on trapeze downwind, almost past the offset mark. Please dont mention the spi halyard.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Rolf,
Im with you, if you can get to the jib and trim it to speed and to angle the boat feels more stable. Ive been on the back when going around the windward mark and no matter how much the main was "played", the boat wants to go staight down, bow first. I've always found that tight reaching the F18 the boat is responve(pretty dramatically) to the jib. The boat really doesnt like to tight reach without the spin, so somebody better have that jibsheet in their hand!
Jake and I pitched around "A" at the NA"s in the last race, I think because I couldnt get the jib out early enough, he thinks because I went up front to grab it, but whatever, the combination of those 2 things turned us upside down quickly, even while blowing the main. It was blowing 20+ so who knows...

To attempt a summary so far:
All agree om bringing all available weight as far back as possible.

Mainsail:
Ca 2/3 of the power is created by the leeward side.
Keeping the traveller in and not letting out the sheet will stall the main top and effectively stall the sail and reduce power.
Problems: Will slow the boat down and
Create major problems when releasing sheet for speed again.

Letting out traveller and mainsheet will allow twisting the top and depower. Maintains speed.

Making sure the mast is rotated may be a must to produce the twist needed.

Jib:
Keeping the jib in will reduce leeward flow over mainsail, but only in lower part.
Letting the jib out will help keep power on in lower part of mainsail and maybe create a little forward lift?
However, working the jib sheet may be difficult in the heat of the battle.

Tentative conclusion: use twist to depower when bearing away.

Still: what about wind strength > 25 knots
- is stalling the main an option in "survival" situations?
(when all you think about is how to get back to the beach
- and fetch the surfboard)

Stein

Remaining question: Steering

In strong wind > 20 knots: Do you do a rapid bear-away or do you slowly ease the boat round the turn?

Survival conditions: Rapid turn (maybe stall the main) or large radius turn?

Stein

Stein,

With a spinnaker boat, it's a balance between keeping your speed up and allowing yourself the crew enough time to manuever the sails through the gybe (non-spin boats are a little different in this regard). If you slow too much during a gybe, you create a large difference in your boat speed and the wind speed and the pressure on the sails (and flipping the boat) increases. If you can keep a good deal of speed, the difference between the speed of your boat and the wind is less and you stand less chance of capsize. However, gybe too fast and you or your crew looses their footing or looses control of the sails. Practice allows you to gybe more quickly and more safely in heavy air.

Hey jake, I think he was asking about what people do after the A-mark.

IIRC from what people told me at the F18 NA's, the top boat would always round A mark and go DDW almost until the crew could get the chute up, and then turn back up again.

On the spin boats, its easier for the crew to hoist when the boat is as close to DDW as possible, and then it helps to snuff the sail when you're heated up a bit.

darhh....you're right...too fast flipping through posts.

and PS...I don't know how to put that hotstick together either.

After our pitchpole experience at Spring Fever, I felt we did 2 things wrong. Crew weight was too far forward (crew was still on trip and mid way on hull) and I didn't ease the mainsheet. We had overstated the mark, so we were already traveled way out and reaching down to the mark. As soon as I beared away at the mark, it buried instantly with no recovery possible. Since my traveler was out I didn't think I needed to depower the main anymore, but I think easing the mainsheet would help twist and spill off the main.

Since then, I've traveled out half way and ease the mainsheet as needed. If it digs, I can dump it all. Once I make the turn, I then sheet back in as the crew is hoisting the spin.