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Rotomolded Future #87520
10/31/06 10:15 AM
10/31/06 10:15 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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Is there a market in the USA for a rotomolded boat with a little more kick than the Getaway? Getaway is rated slightly faster than a H14 (as is the Dart 16). Something in the H16 range of speed. Since I'm wishing here, 14 to 17 foot, obviously boardless with a square top, high aspect ratio main, self tacking jib, optional double trapeze, optional spinnaker (G-Cat-esque).

Does this defeat the purpose of the rotomolded cat, or not, making it too hard for a novice to handle? Does the increased speed make it, comparitively speaking, a "dangerous" boat? Can enough bouyancy be built in to the bows to avoid pitchpole and keep the speed?

What US builder would potentially step up? NACRA? Vectorworks?

"Selling like hotcakes" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


John H16, H14
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: _flatlander_] #87521
10/31/06 10:47 AM
10/31/06 10:47 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 576
BobG Offline
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Mybe a call to Tupperware is possible! If its not fiberglass its craaap! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: BobG] #87522
10/31/06 11:03 AM
10/31/06 11:03 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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Quote
Mybe a call to Tupperware is possible! If its not fiberglass its craaap! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Is it Bob? Or is it progress? Old fiberglass boats are prone to delamination and generally don't look to whippy unless well taken care of. Sure, they can be fixed up with time and effort. Is that what we shall expect from an entry level cat sailor we're trying to woo into racing?

The Getaway looks...like another sailboat, a recreational boat. Why not a specifically designed sporty, entry level, potential racer that is quote indestructable. With new rigging, lines, sails they could feed a novice fleet forever, And feed the high performance fiberglass market.

Last edited by flatlander18; 10/31/06 11:04 AM.

John H16, H14
Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: _flatlander_] #87523
10/31/06 11:41 AM
10/31/06 11:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
You all remember when the Wave came out? The hard core racers thought it was a joke, but soon Rick brought a bunch of them down to his place for the "Wave Nationals" and voila, a new racing class was born. That's all it takes. It doesn't have to be a state of the art design, just get a bunch of them together and race. I would think a larger, two man or two woman or two kid, double trap 16 foot Wave with a self tacking jib, no boards, etc, would work as both a recreational boat and a racer. Like the Dart 16. You could even put the Hobie Bob on the mast. I would think the Motels would love it and could even sponsor regattas. I think the trapeze is necessary to get racers to buy into it, maybe offer a spin. kit as well.

How much is that new French cat, the 16' "Youth Worlds" boat going to cost when Performance starts selling them? Anyone know?

Last edited by Timbo; 10/31/06 01:01 PM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: Timbo] #87524
10/31/06 11:47 AM
10/31/06 11:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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St Petersburg FL
Isnt the Getaway a 16 footer? I would love to get my hands on a storm damaged getaway. I would double trap it, spinaker kit it and square top her. I would also put some wings on.

I think it would be a bas butt weakend warrior.

Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: Robi] #87525
10/31/06 12:01 PM
10/31/06 12:01 PM

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Just my two cents here. Getaways are total pigs, but I love them nonetheless. This is why: I don't own a boat. However, thanks in part to the popularity of rotomolded boats I can go to pretty much any beach and rent a cat. I think that's why they're selling like hotcakes: rental. Fiberglass boats are expensive and a pain in the butt to take care of. You can beat the crap out of a roto and leave some 16-year-old to take care of it, and it will last for at least 5 years. So, I don't think people are buying these things for themselves, I think they are buying them to rent to me when I visit Miami. I have what passes for a state-of-the-art rotomolded ocean kayak, and believe me, rotomolding has a long way to go before fiberglass becomes redundant.

Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: Robi] #87526
10/31/06 12:05 PM
10/31/06 12:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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Quote
Isnt the Getaway a 16 footer? I would love to get my hands on a storm damaged getaway. I would double trap it, spinaker kit it and square top her. I would also put some wings on.

I think it would be a bas butt weakend warrior.


The Dart hulls and boat overall "look" much sportier
[Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]


John H16, H14
Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: _flatlander_] #87527
10/31/06 12:34 PM
10/31/06 12:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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South Carolina
There are pros and some substantial cons to rotomolded construction that you may not have considered. Yes, you can throw a rock at it or play bumper boats and not worry too much - but when you have holed it, you have a big problem. When your keel wears after the 100th time you slide it up the beach, you have an issue. The problem is that repairs of this nature on poly boats are very difficult if not impossible. You're not going to fiberglass it together and the "poly-welding" that used to be possible on them is not anymore. The the new cross linked polyethylene materials they are using to build these boats today are superbly tough but do not lend themselves to heat welding or other means of repair once the plastic is solidified. So yes, they are more durable but they are less repairable. Poly constructed boats are great for businesses that intend to depreciate and eventually trash the asset after several years. I wouldn't recommend it to a sailor that intended to use it at a high frequency for a lengthy period.

The tooling for producing a rotomolded object can more expensive as well but pays for itself through high iterations of production - so not suited for small runs.

By contrast, if you wear out the keel on a fiberglass boat, it's ready to go again after few hours in the garage.

The Wave class is a terrific racing class with very tight and very even competition. I think the Wave fills a very neat niche in the industry. Personally, I've had some of my most fun moments on one and would certainly have one in my backyard if I thought I had the time to sail it. Fair, even, and exciting racing can certainly be had on any rotomolded sail boat - speed is relative. I just don't think it's going to be the wave of the future (pun not intended).


Jake Kohl
Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: Jake] #87528
10/31/06 06:20 PM
10/31/06 06:20 PM

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I love mold.

Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: Jake] #87529
11/01/06 08:16 AM
11/01/06 08:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
carlbohannon Offline
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Posts: 778
Houston
I agree with Jake except for one area, repair. The cross linked plastics can be repaired, it just takes different tools. I have two, an auto body brazing tool and an industrial(high temp) hot glue gun. Both effectivly braze the plastic.

There are several other ways to repair this type of plastic(involving chemical reactions) but it's DIY, there are no kits available.

Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: carlbohannon] #87530
11/01/06 08:47 AM
11/01/06 08:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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Found this regarding windsurfer repair (old BIC? notice the ref. to 1981 price), however it's confusing, not sure whether he's referencing cross link repair or using cross link to repair linear?

HOT AIR WELDING/POLYETHYLENE

We use the hot air welding gun manufactured by Leister Co. and distributed in the United States by the Robert R. White Co. The gun costs $385.00(1981 price). Special tips are required; these cost approximately $80.00 each. The most often used tip is ______ . This tip uses 3/16" extruded high density polyethylene. Also needed are scrapers for cleaning the polyethylene.

The cross-linked polyethylene that we use is known as a thermo-set plastic. This means that once the plastic is heated and melted, it cannot be melted without burning it. You need to use a material that is the same as the skin. ( Therefore, the kind of weld a hot air gun produces is not a true fusion of the plastic (as in metal welding, brazing or aluminum helearcing).

Experience bond and controlling the three variables are needed to produce a successful bond. Three variables are:

1. Cleaning both the polyethylene board and rod with a scraping tool.

2. Controlling the temperature of the tip of the gun at 3OOC.

3. Drawing the gun across the weld at a steady controlled rate.

DON'TS

1. Do not try and melt the extrusion into the board.

2. Do not hold the gun for too long in one spot. It may bubble and delaminate the hull.

3. Allow the weld to cool completely before testing the repair.

The repair can be finished by shaving the weld flush with the hull with a sure form or sanding.

The hot air welder can be used to repair daggerboard wells, mast-steps, skeg boxes, and replace large hull sections that have been damaged. When replacing hull sections, mast-steps, and daggerboard wells, it is best to cut out the sections with 2-3" deep of foam attached. Bond this to the hull with the epoxy and then seal the perimeter with the hot air welder


John H16, H14
Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: _flatlander_] #87531
11/01/06 11:47 AM
11/01/06 11:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 306
St. Louis, MO
hobienick Offline
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 306
St. Louis, MO
You are not going to hot air weld crossliked PE. The plastic molecules have chemically bonded to each other and a hot air gun will not break these bonds, allow more material to be introduced, and reform the bonds. Older PE boats did not have the plastic crosslinked. This is why you can repair them by heat welding.

As mentioned before, crosslinking is a double edged sword... They are very tough and can take enormous amounts of abuse, but once you finally break or wear out the plastic, it's pretty much over.

The crossliking is also why not much sticks to the hulls.


Nick

Current Boat
Looking for one

Previous Boats
'84 H16
'82 H18 Magnum
'74 Pearson 30
St. Louis, MO
Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: hobienick] #87532
11/01/06 12:06 PM
11/01/06 12:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
How long does it take to wear down the plastic?

Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: Robi] #87533
11/01/06 12:22 PM
11/01/06 12:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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gonna use beach wheels? just because that's the easiest form of transportation, a helluva long time.


John H16, H14
Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: hobienick] #87534
11/01/06 12:42 PM
11/01/06 12:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 912
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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Dublin, Ireland
I know nothing about repairing Polyethylene. I do have a repair kit supplied by Laser for the Dart 16. 2 methods of repair are mentioned. One is Rod Welding with a Leister gun as described above by John.
The other is Powder Welding. For this you need a hot plate and frying pan, a heat gun and a putty knife. And of course the powder which is supplied in this kit.
This is heated at 150 C for about 10 mins. The area to be repaired is cleaned and sanded - broken bits cut away etc. The area is heated, the putty knife is heated and the melted plastic is quickly spread onto the area. When cooled smooth with chisel or block plane. Finish by sanding and heat polishing the area. To heat polish: sweep the gun back and forth across the area until it glosses over.
That's what Laser say anyway <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Dermot
Catapult 265
www.catamaran.ie
Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: Dermot] #87535
11/01/06 12:59 PM
11/01/06 12:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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_flatlander_  Offline OP
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38.912, -95.37
I'm getting sick from the dizziness <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

"Yes, you can!" "NO, you can't!"

Check out the lead boat sailing uni...Dermot?
Dart 16's and large, orange floating object


John H16, H14
Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: _flatlander_] #87536
11/01/06 01:29 PM
11/01/06 01:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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38.912, -95.37
OK, I guess the Laser material is NOT cross linked.

It is Techrothene 109, from the Laser Pico brochure;

Techrothene 109 is a linear high density UV stabilised compound moulded into a stress free homogeneous sandwich with an inner closed cell structure.

Exceptionaly Strong
Incorporates built-in buoyancy
Superbly Stiff
Highly resistant to scratching and impact damage - easy to repair


John H16, H14
Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: _flatlander_] #87537
11/01/06 02:04 PM
11/01/06 02:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Mary  Offline
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Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
So why doesn't Hobie use it?

Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: _flatlander_] #87538
11/01/06 02:10 PM
11/01/06 02:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 912
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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Dermot  Offline
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Posts: 912
Dublin, Ireland
Quote
I'm getting sick from the dizziness <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

"Yes, you can!" "NO, you can't!"

Check out the lead boat sailing uni...Dermot?
Dart 16's and large, orange floating object

Link did not work <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Laser also call their material Techrothene 121 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Dermot
Catapult 265
www.catamaran.ie
Re: Rotomolded Future [Re: Dermot] #87539
11/01/06 02:15 PM
11/01/06 02:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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38.912, -95.37


John H16, H14
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