StewartDouglas:

My recommendation from what you have said it go with the Formula 18. You will never look back. It is a great choice! There are more than 15 manufacturers of Formula 18s in the World. There are two that are most popular in the US. They are the Nacra and the Hobie. There are others making inroads, Capricorn and VectorWorks. I good used Hobie Tiger or Nacra F18 can run you about $8,000 to $9,000. New you are looking at $15,000 or so.

The Formula 18s are the "talk of the town" right now and should remain so for quite a while. Fun, Fun, Fun!!!

Why a more expensive Formula 18 than a Hobie 16 or 18?
First is the weight issue. The 16 really likes to sail light, you are already about 35 lbs too heavy.
Second is resale. You will have a boat that is competitive in a class that is growing if you decide to upgrade to a new one. There are plenty of dealers that are looking for used Formulas, reasonably priced, for newbies.
Third is that it does not matter if you have a dedication to a manufacturer as all the boats are sailing very competitively against each other. This is a really well thought out "box rule" class.

If you are looking to get into a cheaper used boat I think a friend of mine wants to get a brand new one and sell his used one. He is near you. (Rick will get his money)

As someone mentioned it is not typically known as a throw the mast up and go boat, but there are ways to make it easier to setup. I will be glad to help you with some of those ideas when you decide.

Later,
Dan

i started with a nacra 5.7 myself and switched to F18's when they came to the market. my first cat experience was on a hobie 16. i would not recommend a hobie 16 to you since it is certainly not the most forgiving boat (they pitchpole quite easy). the nacra 5.7/570 is a very quick boat without daggerboards. which is easy for beginners. good decison by the way to start sailing cats!

Hi, my name is Paul and I joined “the dark side” this summer, this is my story...

I ended up with a Prindle 18-2 and love it. I don’t know why it took me so long to see the light.

Here’s how I arrived at my decision:
I grew up with wind-surfers and occasionally sailing on small mono’s like Scott’s or SunFish. I decided I wanted to get back into it and bought an M scow mono hull. While this boat is relatively quick and was a blast to sail, it quickly got boring… even more so watching a particular H16 blow past me every time I was out on the lake. I enjoy playing fast sports like hockey, water skiing, snow skiing to name a few, and I enjoy a good rush of adrenaline more than I enjoy a nice relaxing game of checkers, so I decide a cat was in my future.

My requirements:
I don’t plan to ever race in organized events, but I want a decent boat that is quick and won’t get boring. I need to be able rig and handle the boat myself for solo runs, but also be able to take my wife or friends with. While a boat with a spi might be great fun, I think it will be over kill for the recreational type stuff I’ll be doing on smaller lakes, so a spi is not required. The boat needs to be in decent shape, I want to spend more time sailing than fixing. Limited budget, I’m into enough other sports, I don’t have 10-20k to throw into this hobby.

I bought my P18-2 in great shape for $1900 and only had to drive an hour to pick it up. I did have to replace a few lines and figure out proper rigging, but that didn’t take long to do (thanks to this forum). I spent quite a bit of time rigging up a sling system to keep the rudders stable while trailering (now I don’t have to remove them every time), but I don’t consider that to be repairs to the boat, just innovation.

With ½ of a summer under my belt on this boat I certainly haven’t gotten bored with it. It seems like I barely know the boat yet. I’ve been doing a ton of reading and playing/trying things on the water to make it quicker and get a good feel for the edge, but there’s definitely so much more adjusting and tweaking that I haven’t even had a chance to try yet. It’s a great 2-up boat, but not quite the 3-up that I thought it would be or read it would be. Maybe that’s because I expect it to handle and fly with 3 like it does with 2. Suffice to say, with 2 buddies and myself averaging around 180 lbs, it doesn’t have the zip that it does with only 2 on it and doesn’t give quite the same adrenaline rush.

I know with my 15 yr old boat and hardly any cat experience I’m nowhere near as fast as the guys on this forum who race regularly, but that’s ok, I’m not looking to race them heads up, I’m looking for a fun exciting day on the water and that’s what I get every time I’m out… unless of course you count the evening the wind died on me and I paddled for over an hour to get back to the landing… that wasn’t so fun and exciting.

While I am certainly happy with my decision, if I were to do it again with my same requirements, I would probably look at the P19 or something else just a little bigger than the 18, just to be able to carry a little more weight (read 3 people).

Sorry for the book, hope some of that rambling helps you with your decision.

Ditto what Paul said, on nearly every count. In a couple of seasons, if I stick with it in terms of interest, I'll try to pick up a used F18. But I've got a P18 and will hang onto it as it'll make a fantastic family boat - very fast for all but competitive sailing.

Spinnaker aside, is there a substantial difference to the rigging on a F18 versus say a TheMightyHobie18, P18 or similar?

Also, what max total towing weight would we be dealing with for the heaviest of the boats mentioned so far? I'm guessing somewhere around 1300 lbs. max...up to 500 for the boat, and 800 for the trailer).

My boat rigged (Tiger) is 400 lbs. I do not think that the trailer comes in at much more than about 400. That is 800 total. Add 100 for misc and you are still under 1000.

Dan

This is probably a good time to announce the alternative to the F18 boats.

Think lighter, cheaper, more versatile and with the same performance on the water.

Or in hard facts : 240 lbs ready to sail weight, below 13.500 US$ NEW and optimized for both fast doublehanded and fast singlehanded sailing. Don't look at the US D-PN handicap ratings for this boat as they are plain BS.

For proof read : http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showthre...age=0#Post89081

We are talking about Formula 16 boats here and 11 Blade F16's are going to be on offer right after the Alter Cup event in feb 2006 (pricing is not know yet, but contact the builder at 321-269-8444 ask for Matt McDonald.

There are also secondhanders to be had below 10.000. One being under 7000 I seem to remember.


HOWEVER ; my personal advice goes against both the F18 and F16's at this time. I think you will be far better off finding yourself a decent nacra 5.0 or nacra 500 or a boat like it like the Nacra 5.7 (570) or even the Hobie 16 or Hobie 18.

These are very cheap in the second hand market and will keep you happy for the first few years. Then you can always upgrade to a more performance oriented boat. Going this way will both be cheaper overall and will get you a new young boat when you are ready to appreciate one. Afterall the biggest mishaps always happen when we make our first steps. Better to hole a 1200 bucks nacra 5.0 then a 10.000 F18/F16. Besides when you take care of your boat then you can sell that nacra 500 on to another guy for the same price you bought it for.

Wouter

Best boat is any dagger boarder, two sail 16 or bigger in good condition and cheap.
Sail that a little and then you will have some idea of what to look for. Everyone here has an axe to grind to some extent. If you are sensible about price paid you will move the boat on easily and can move up with your own ideas leading the way.

Guys:

I got Mystere 4.3 for me and 13 year old grand daughter (100 lbs and not enough strength for bigger boat) to learn spinnaker on. She has 5 years of sailing on my Hobie 17. I got a 2002 Nationals boat for $3000 with galvanized trailer and CatTrax. Has a squaretop main, jib and snuffer spinnaker. It also weights 240.

Doug and Ashleigh Snell

Having been on Doug's Mystere, I think I am going to get rid of my monster one of therse days for a 4.3. can't beat the simplicity (and the automatic, highly technical speed brake they have)

Bad about names. Is this Brian or Kevin who took Mike for a ride too? We are going to move to your area as soon as we can after mid March graduation. We fell in LOVE with the clean air, emerald green water and white sand!! Beats the hell out of our CRAP here !!!! So you will get a chance to sail it again. Yea I have yet to try the Spin, but like what you said about speed break if you heat it up no much.

Florida sailor watch out for the crazy Texans!!

See you soon,

Doug, Mike and Ashleigh

Doug

Nah, I went out with someone Zack- the 13 or so year old.

So who is this. We will be there soon. Can't wait for Bob Curry to show me how to make the 17 fly with the sails he cut for me.

Doug

If you were in Oz I would say a mosquito light enough to carry off a trailor at 55 kgs enough performance for a beginner as they are competative in open class on yard stick and easier enough to right after a capsize.

I can't tell you about all boats. But I know that the H20 is great. I have had a blast crewing on one. With the spin rigged we have the same # as the F18's and are faster up wind. We have one in great condition for sale right now in TN and the only reason that it needs to find a good home is that we are too light a crew to right it-265lbs on a heavy day. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The F18's are good too-less clutter on the tramp-but they still are more expensive used.
Good luck sorting through all the great advice and options and finding a boat!

Since my wife is small, sheet-loads came up in this discussion regarding the F18 and being OK for a small-framed crew, but in another topic I started about trailering Tornado's it was suggested that F18 sheet-loads might be too high for such; I'd ask everyone with a basis for comparison to chime in (especially any female sailors). How high are F18 sheet-loads, relatively speaking (other performance boats too)?

Without ever having sailed a cat, applying a bit of common sense suggests that the more performance a boat possesses translates to higher sheet-loads...the question becomes how much higher? Looking at Joanna's comments...it seems the H20 isn't too much load, so how much more load does the F18 generate?

The more serious F18 crews are now running 10:1 mainsheet systems. I suspect the Hobie 20's are limited to 7:1

Pretty much the higher sheet loads are related to the new cut of mainsails, especially the larger squaretops. So there can actually by quite a significantly difference between the modern boats (formula + A-cat + Tornado) and the older designs like H20.

But the Tornado boats are now also using these modern cut mainsails so their required sheet loads will have gone up as well. Unless you decide to use the old classic tornado suit of sails, but these are getting pretty outdated by now. The price for that second hand Tornado will have to be really attractive to serious consider buying it. The new mainsails for a tornado are used since 2001 I believe.

F20's over here use 10:1 and higher as well, I don't know what the US I-20's are using currently. The smallest of the modern formula boats, the F16, is using 7:1 or 8:1 mainsheet systems. A 6:1 system is really too little for the F16's.

Looking at this picture I don't there is any modern boat that uses less then 7:1 for the mainsheet system. But having said this, it is not all about the sheet loads and purchase of the mainsheet systems. It is also about how much the boat needs to be driven with an "active mainsheet". The Tornado is said to be a boat that requires a significant amount of continious adjustment on the mainsheet to make it go or control its attitude. So too the F18's and I don't think the F20/I-20's or F16 are very much better is this respect. The F16 being the least overpowered boat in this series but still a good amount of attentive mainsheet handling is advised here. This tendency comes with the desire to sail a modern boat.

A good mainsheet system goes a long way at allowing your crew to pump the mainsheet for longer periods of fun sailing. The only drawback in going up in purchase is that you'll need longer arms to achieve the same response in the rig. From personal experience I like to limit the purchase system to 7:1 for this reason and my 128 lb female crew is pumping that quite well, so I think we'll stick to that.

I hope this helps.

Wouter

The old rig T used mostly 1:8 mainsheets, but with the square top mains I believe 1:9 is most common. You need much higher mainsheet tension to make the leech stand up properly with the square tops.

To get top-speed out of a T (or any cat really) you need to be active with the mainsheet, period. On our T I would estimate sheet loads between 20-35kgs at least when we are double trapezeing upwind. Downwind, the spi can be a beast to trim when it is blowing.
If you are not racing, or training for racing, you dont need to be quite as aggressive with your trim.

But like I said in the tilt-trailer thread, also consider what boats you are able to right again without assistance after a capsize. I would not have bought a boat I could not right after a capsize. At 140Kgs, you are a pretty light team, so both the Tornado and the F-18s might be out of scope. I know you would need something extra to right a Tornado with alu mast. About 160 is what I would consider the minimum weight to right a Tornado with alu mast. With a carbon mast, the T is a bit lighter to right, but I dont know how much. BTW: Both the T and the F-18s are sophisticated racing machines. You will need to get pretty technical if you want to race them well. But both will do as recreational boats as long as you follow the basic catsailing rules.

Just let her drive, and it won't make any difference what the sheeting loads are. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well...there is that! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I see there are more than a few women sailing/crewing on competitive F18s, so that tells me the loads aren't too much of an issue apparently. That said, playing around with different purchase systems was something in the back of my mind in case we found ourselves with more than she can handle, but I don't think it'll be a problem.

What about me steering and us handing the main back and forth (me doing most of it with her grabbing the reigns periodically as onboard events demand)? This is how we always sailed our Mirage, she'd set/trim the jib, I'd work the main and tiller. Depending on how we wanted to sail, we'd either park both sheets and steer through wind changes, I'd tweak main trim and heading continuously, or that plus her tweaking the jib trim continuously. Granted, a performance cat is a totally different beast, but the concept is the same.