John,

I like the idea.

Dave

John: That is a great idea!

Kelly and Jason: You continue proving yourselves quite capable sailors! Congratulations again. Looks like a tough field to be sailing against. Good luck at the Championships.

Later,
Dan

Credit where it is due - this proposal came from Bob Hodges and is on the agenda for the Committee meeting in Rhode Island in a couple of weeks.

So in practical terms.

Performance chooses betwen Nacra 20 classes

Hobie chooses between Hobie 20, Hobie 16 and Hobie 18,

(Setting asside the single handed Hobie 17, Hobie 14 and F17R sailors for a minute)

Plus F18 (Takes care of Nacra, Hobie and Cap)
Then you have two small classes
Tornado
Sharks.

Seems like the large number of Hobie sailors get slighted if they loose one of their two slots for designation.

Is there a rational policy for including Singlehand sailors in a championship using two person boats?

Seems to me, Hobie 17, Hobie 14, A class and Isotopes and F17R's are all in the same circumstance. They would need to put together a team to compete. Perhaps they don't care about competing in the US multihull championships.

In any case, Why would you parse a designated spot for one of these classes (A class) but lump the rest into the recommended by builder?

If you decide that the single handers deserve a shot at competeing for the US Championship outside the Area qualifiers ... then how do you sort between the single handed classes.

I am not sure the proposal has been cooked all the way through yet.

Personally, I would like to see all of these classes feature the area qualifiers in their schedules. In my area we managed only 8 boats as each individual class scheduled lots of events just before the area C qualifier.


One draconian change might be to have invitations go out based on class participation in the qualifiers. Classes that support qualifiers get an additional slot. Those classes that don't care... don't get a slot...

In Area C, we have a large H17 and A class fleet, No Hobie 20 or F18 or Nacra 20 (doing buoys racing fleets) and a large H16 fleet and a small Hobie 18 fleet.) Calculate what percentage of the viable racing fleet supports the qualifier with attendance. Average across the different Areas ... Pick the classes that care and award additional slots based on those class nationals.

IMO, We need to have the Class organizations behind the ARea Championships and then reward them with extra slots based on participation. Shift the onus for securing the number of slots to the sailors in the class... Not the builders.

(These ideas are off the top of my head and perhaps should be shreded instantly... but food for thought.)

Mark

Just like John Alani I'm on the wrong side of the big pond to be affected by what is decided. However this thread did got me thinking about it.

Just a few wild idea's :

Why should any class get preference over another with respect to the Alter Cup slots ?

Why should some F18 sailor get 3 chances at getting in while most others are only getting one shot ? Some sailors like an Nacra F18 sailor are getting one shot through their nacra nationals, one shot through their F18 nationals and one shot through their local area qualifier. While say a non aligned sailor will get only 1 shot through his local qualifier. And this sailor will be especially unlucky if his qualifier is one of the big ones with over 20 boats participating.


This is hardly a fair ruleset.

So allow me to propose a totally different approach.

Why not make the allotting of slots more dependent on boats entered. If you win 2nd place in a 24 boat fleet (area K) then you have more ground to claim a slot then when you win 1st in a 5 boat fleet (see area H of this year). So why not give him that ?

So here my proposal :

First, the winner of last year needs a slot and at least 1 wild-card slot is handy to have. The latter gives the Alter Cup committee some way of adressing freak phenomena during the qualifiers. So lets reserve 2 slots; still leaving 18 slots to be devided.

Now line the events up, in decreasing order, by the numbers of boats that have finished least 1 heat. Area's without a qualifier event are deleted from the list.

Each area still in the listing gets a slot.

Then each area having more then 10 boats finish at least one heat will get an additional slot, preference to place in the listing. Then same for each area having more then 20 boats etc. This continues till there are no more slots left or till you've run out of events having rights to more slots.

If slot are left over, which is likely under the current participation at the qualifiers then these slots all become wild-cards that can be petitioned.



An example taking this years qualifiers.

Area K 24 boats (taken from last year) => 3 slots
Area D-S 21 boats => 3 slots
Area E 18 boats => 2 slots
Area G 13 boats (taken form last year) => 2 slots
Area F 12 boats => 2 slots
Area J 9 boats => 1 slot
Area D-N 7 boats => 1 slot
Area C 8 boats => 1 slot
Area H 5 boats => 1 slot
Area A/B no qualifier held so no slots

Assigned : 16 slots + 1 last year winner = 3 slots are left for petitioning (wild cards).



This way each sailor gets an pretty equal chance at getting at the Alter Cup if his skills are sufficient.

Area's with small qualifier fleets are not favoured, neither are sailors who happen to belong to 3 seperate slot assigning groups like Hobie Tiger, F18 class and Area X. Or nacra A2, A-cat class and again area X.

Also area's able to hold qualifiers with large fleets tend to sustain a racing cirquit of higher skill levels. Such area's get now to send more sailors to the Alter Cup making the cup more heavily contested. This system will prevent any qualifier event from being more heavily contested then the Alter Cup itself. The current system certainly allows such a thing to happen now.

Also it really awards area's that get more then 10 boats at their qualifiers. It will be in everybodies interested to get Joe out on the water as well. Maybe this directly helps participation. It will certainly make organising a succesful qualifier more rewarding.

Also a sailor maybe an excellent sailor inside his class but be pretty mediocre in an qualifier event. Therefor it is far best to have the qualifiers determine slots. You don't want this guy at the Alter cup when 5 other sailors from his own area would beat him already. This would be fair to nobody. Especially not to the 5 sailors who have better skills but don't belong to any favoured class. What if John Casey/Kenny Pierce were last years winner. Then some other I-20 crew from Florida could possibly get a slot while having been merciless beaten at the qualifier by no less then 11 other crews. Not the sort of thing you want to happen.

Wouter

As much as I don't want to, I have to agree with the Wout on this one.

The flip side of this is you need boats for the Alter Cup, and Hobie and Nacra have pretty much been the main players in this regard, and yes there have been exceptions (Bim F18ht and now the V-Works Blade), I just don't know how well this idea will sit with them.

Mr. Williams I do not envy you in this task, but I couldn't think of a more qualified person for the job.

Ding

My recommendation to John was to consider increasing the number of rotating classes and I asked that they consider reducing the number of manufacturer classes. The risk is it could bruise the relationship between the manufacturers and the Alter Cup committee but I think like a bruise it would heal quickly.

If that happens, I asked John to use a selection criteria that gave the classes with the most participation at their major national events the first shot at the three slots. Currently in the US, I believe the A-class, F-18, and H-16 are getting the highest numbers to their major regattas (in the case of the A-class, 42 boats at the midwinters and 30 at the North Americans) so if this is used for the 2007 event, I think these classes should get the first shot.

It would be my responsibility as class president to determine ASAP if our class would provide a participant and I think I should have a deadline to get back to the Alter Cup chairman. If we do not produce a rep, the committee should have other classes in mind if they have not already been selected.

Bob Hodges
USACA President

Bob,

My I ask why you think it is wise to give a wild card to a sailor who was present at a large class event over one that actually finished high in one of the larger area qualifiers ?

This sailor may even have ended up lower then 2nd or 3nd in his own qualifier or he may not have attended his own area qualifier at all ?

Surely the Alter Cup should be a fleet race pitching the best against the best ? And how better to determine who is best then by seperating the men from the bouys, ehh boys, at the open class qualifiers ?

Don't you agree that a sailor should get a wild card only because he is a very good sailor that will otherwise be sorely missed at the Alter Cup event. Not because he happens to sail an particulary large class.

There are only a handful of boats in the US Tornado fleet, but still it is probable that such a crew can beat any and all sailors who attended a 40 boat nationals of a different class.

Why should any sailor get a free pass simply because he is lucky enough to sail a particular kind of craft ?

What if the top 5 of the F18 nationals all win their area qualifiers ? Should we then also put number 6th of that event in the Alter cup even when we already know that he is the 6th best of the F18 sailors ? Maybe there are a few sailors of other makes about that will easily have his beacon too, but came second at their qualifiers. Shouldn't they be giving the slot then ? What if some F18 crews in line decline and we end up at the crew placed 10 or higher ?

Wouter

Yo JW, give me a ring.

I don't think that changing the current system is neccessarily the right way to go.

This year Nacra had 17 N20's and 14 N17's. They would have to choose between these classes for the Alter Cup. What if we had 17 N17's and 14 N20's? Nacra would probably choose the N17 and possibly leave the N20 champion without a spot. I can also see putting the power into the Altercup committee's hands but then this becomes a political battleground with possible hurt feelings.

I look at Hobie this year and see that the H16 should definitely get the nod but then they are probably going to choose the H17 as their other class. This possibly isn't the way that it should shake out. They may choose the H20 champion though I'm not sure? They also often supply the boats to the events and should get some benefits from that.

I'm also of the belief that the A cat's and the F18's need a spot currently. I'm not sure that this will always continue in the future. There is nothing wrong with a manufacturer picking the F18 class winner as their represenative.

Let's see. We have 10 areas
2 Hobie
2 Nacra
1 Olympic
1 Rotating
1 Returning Alter Cup Champ
3 Petition

If anything I can see you moving one of the petition slots to rotating so that you have 2 rotating and 2 petition slots.

Remeber that we often have the same person qualifying in different ways. We should always give precidence to heavily attended events.

Oh Yeah and Congrats to Ollie and Kelly. You guys rock!!!

Mike Hill

As neither Hobie nor Nacra is supplying the boats this year can we then have 1 of their slots so the current supplier can appoint a crew. As to get some benefit for supplying the boats as well ?

You can't claim it if you don't give it out.

Wouter

Well if the F16's held a Nationals with significant competition then I'm sure that they would also get a slot, I'm sure. The Alter Cup Committee will cross that bridge when it comes.

Let's also consider that some Nationals are a lot easier to win than others. While none are easy we could rank them in order of toughness. This ranking will change every year. Right now I think it would go something like the following. My apologies if I leave a class out I haven't spent the time to analyze all of the players.

1. Tornado
2. F18
3. H16
4. N20
5. N17
6. A Class
7. H20
8. H17
9. H14
10. Isotope
11. Shark
12. Nacra F18
13. N6.0

This is just my opinion. I'm sure I just pissed off a bunch of sailors.

And Wouter since the Alter Cup is run by US Sailors for US Sailors I'm not sure why your opinion even matters.

Mike Hill

Fleet "Final
Standing" Helmsperson Crew Sail No.
18 1 MARSHACK, KEN MARSHACK, DEBBIE 15897
18 2 COOLEY, STEVE COOLEY, SABRINA 16759
18 3 SOHN, JAMES KING, KRISTEN 16892
18 4 MAURI, JUAN FAVELA, ROD 12024
18 5 RAUGHLEY, DAVID CAREY, VALARIE 16934
18 6 EVENDEN, PAUL GROESZ, VALARIE 16769
18 7 CRONAN, ROBERT CRONAN, LAURIE 13413
18 8 MIMLITCH, ROBERT H MIMLITCH, SUE 16846
18 9 KUNEY, GEORGE BLOOMGARDEN, SUSAN 12
18 10 THOMSON, GILLIAN PARK, TERRY 15852
18 11 JOHNSON, ROBERT SINCLAIR, CAMPBELL 15976
18 12 SHEDD, CORY PUCKETT, ERNIE 9471
18 13 GODBOLD, GARY N/A, N/A 15924
18 14 TERNULLO, FRANK LONG, PATRICIA 15986
18 15 PECK, BRENT ELLIS, CLINT 16918
18 16 BOUSCHOR, DAVID COKER, DUANE 7877
18 17 ISAACKS, VICKI COKER, LOUELLEN 12853

Pissed off maybe some of these sailors? Congrats to Ken and George for passing the test at qualifiers.

Mike,

Other than your winning (congrats <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) and some kind of Hobie 14 pre-Nationals warm up race we heard nothing of the Area K qualifier results at Clear Lake, and none are listed on US Sailing.

Mind giving us a recap? Did anyone make it close? How many boats?

Thanks

Perhaps we should go back to the orginal format and the one used by all of the other US Sailing championships, with the modification that 20 slots are available.

The assumption behind 10 slots to Area Champions and 10 slots to National winners is that the area championship are hotly contested! So, in most areas this is not the case.

If two or more slots were available in a region based on turnout perhaps interest would go up.

The alternative is to just pick teams from the nationals.
Certainly would be a lot less work!

[quote]Let's also consider that some Nationals are a lot easier to win than others. While none are easy we could rank them in order of toughness. This ranking will change every year. Right now I think it would go something like the following. My apologies if I leave a class out I haven't spent the time to analyze all of the players.

1. Tornado
2. F18
3. H16
4. N20
5. N17
6. A Class
7. H20
8. H17
9. H14
10. Isotope
11. Shark
12. Nacra F18
13. N6.0
[quote]

Let's see here. Here's a partial of the top five at the A-Class North Americans:

Lars Guck - Three time runner-up in the Tornado class Olympic Trials, V-15 National Champ, Intercollegiate All American, International Canoe World Champion

Phil Kinder - 2006 A-Class Midwinter Champ (42 boats), Intercollegiate All American

Bob Hodges - Snipe Midwinter Champion (1986), Laser Master National Champion (1994), F-18HT North Americans, 3rd 2003 Alter Cup

Ben Hall - twice A-Class NA champion and has won numerous national and north american titles in a bunch of classes (keelboats and dinghies)

Pete Melvin - 2 time A-class World Champion, former ISAF Youth World Champion, 3 time A-Class NA Champion among others

Yep, we suck!

John,
Why can't you just simplify this by using the same guidelines (except only for multihull classes) that are used for the US Sailing Championship of Champions, with the modification that 10 of the 20 slots will be allocated to the winners of the Area Qualifiers?

Forget the petitions and forget the Olympic Class. Forget giving specific number of slots to specific class associations or manufacturers, because that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

In other words, for the remaining 10 slots, the winners of either National or North American Championships of any one-design multihull classes during the prior year can submit their bids to be in the Alter Cup. This could even include winners of, like, the Corsair 28R Nationals, for instance.

If more than 10 skippers want to enter, the Alter Cup Committee would have to make the decision about whom to accept and whom to cut, just as they do in the Championship of Champions.

If less than 10 skippers want to enter (and/or if you have vacant spots from the area qualifiers), petitions would only be used as a backup to fill the empty slots and they should also come from high-placing sailors in National or North American Championships during the prior year and NOT as "representatives" designated by manufacturers or class associations.

Let me take a run at ranking cat classes. (since I can't sleep anyway)

1. A-Cat - Due to depth of skill and number of sailors
2. Tornado - The top teams are Pros- no #'s
3. H16 - The shear number of sailors and events breed great racers. Don't knock it until you've tried it.
4. F18
5. Hobie Tiger-more #'s & depth than both N20 & Nacra F18
6. Nacra F18-Great skill at the top, but not the depth of the Tiger Fleet
7.N20-Usually the same players as the Nacra F18 Fleet, just not as many boats
8. N17
9. Wave-Boarders on being a regional niche boat

The rest are niche boats. I think anyone who has gotten in to the top 5 in any of the above could make a pretty serious run at winning those classes. The old Hobie classes still have their die hards and specialists, but their appeal of the boat for whatever reason, takes away from their participation, thus the depth of the fleet.
H20
H17
H14
Not really sure about what order to put the old Hobies in, but I do know that the venerable 14 is staging quite a comeback on the National level

Isotope
Shark
N6.0
these three classes are really only raced regionally, so the numbers of participants is low.

I also do not like seperating out individual F18 manufacturer classes. Hopefully that will go away in the not too distant future.

Disclaimer: My opinions can change with reasonable discussion &/or enough rum <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Don't forget that it's been several years since a US sailor won the H-16 North Americans.

Top finish this year was Bob Merrick in 5th.

Puerto Rico, Guatemala, Brazil, Mexico were the nationalities of the top four (and yes, I know that PR is technically part of the US, but not in international sports).

There are some really good ideas in this thread - when I get back to Jacksonville, I think I'm going to have to print this topic to take to the meeting.

I appreciate the input, but I'd suggest that any effort to "rank" the classes against each other is futile and counter-productive. I can only think of one or two people off the top of my head that have competed in all of the classes specified here - those are probably the only folks that can be truly objective. The rest of us just don't have the whole picture, no matter how well-intentioned and honest. It is a great topic for a friendly bar room debate after a race, but has little bearing on the topic. I don't think the Multihull Council would ever engage in any sort or effort to pidgeonhole fleets with respect to how talented, competitive, or deep they might be.

Remember that the current rules of how to invite teams to Alter Cup were concieved during a time when there were predominantly two "brands" hosting national events for their fleets - it wasn't always that way, and now it isn't really the case anymore... hence the discussion. But whether you agree with the method or not, surely we can all see that the format invigourated the event and raised the level of the whole idea of an invitational one-design US championship.

So, for the future, we need to continue to modify the format to mirror the evolution of our national makeup, and keep the door into the event clear and attainable.

Truly - thanks for all these ideas. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />