Acat230,


What you are doing is called "bootstrapping".


You justify that the named A-cat skippers are very good in general (over all classes) by naming how many times they won an A-cat event.

When a sailor wins his class event then it only says something about his relative skill compared to the other crews in the class. It does not say anything about his skills in absolute sense.

Lets forget about any dinghy wins also. I have yet to see a dinghy champion to make quick and succesful transition to a catamaran. The two designs are just extremely different in how they need to be handled. Rig tuning is completely different, can't tack on shifts easily enough and the speeds are so much higher that correct sail trim is much more critical.

What I mean here is that you can grasp the 49-er world champion and put him on a tornado and they will come last in any international Tornado event. That is has much dinghy experience helps racing cats. And that applies the otherway around as well.

So what are we left with here ?





So his skills come from sailing Tornado's and not A-cats. These Tornado skills should be more then sufficient to win him a slot through either the Olympic boat slot or his area qualifier slot. No point in awarding him a third slot through the A-cat class.





nothing besides A-cat class wins





Which F18HT north americans was that, the one with 7 or 8 boats participating ? By this standard any cat class can claim a slots. And there are many more 3rd spot (or any other spot like 2nd) Alter Cup crews over the past years. Only the WINNER of the Alter Cup gets to return. All others have the fight to win back their slot.





nothing besides A-cat class wins





nothing besides A-cat class wins unless you really want to count his youth class win of about 20 years ago.




I don't think anyone said that. Apart from you that is.

If anything your summary shows that the best of the US A-cats sailors have trouble winning anything other the A-cat races. Should therefor the A-cat class be given a reserved slot for each annual Alter Cup event ?

If this is still your claim then that is hardly reasonable or fair, is it ?

And if these A-cat skippers are so good anyway, why couldn't they win their own area qualifiers ? Just like Charley Ogletree and Ken Marschack did, sailing an A-cat?

Or didn't these sailors you name even bother to participate in their area qualifier ? If so then why should they be given a slot to the Alter Cup event anyway ? Try explaining that to the other sailors who actually did put in alot of effort and raced hard to win a slot.

Wouter

ermmm....Paul Elvstrom?



Just because you state it Wouter doesn't make it true. I think you're waaaay off the point of discussion here and your argument is without substance. Sorry.

Who ?





Just because I said it doesn't make it "NOT true" either.

I sailed the 49-er for a while and I know how it is different to a cat.

Wouter

Nice one. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mary,

I really like your proposal. Makes it simple and much, much more competitive than the current format. Isn't it all about the competition?

My 2 cents,
Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey Rolf,


I know who he is. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/profiles/bio_uk.asp?par_i_id=37250

Point being of course that he did not make a quick nor very succesful transition to a catamaran.

He won many monohull championships and was 13 times World champion in no less then 7 different monohulls. However his best result in cats came in the form of a European championship and 4th at the Olympics in 1984. Quite meager for a 13 times world champion dinghy sailor. By that time he had over 25 years of racing experience in dinghies.

He was a very good sailor but his dinghy credidentials didn't assure great succes in a catamaran class in the way it did with respect to other dinghy classes. Also we are talking about a sailor with his prime several decades ago, both dinghies and cats have gotten very technical since then. I think prebend rigs we're invented around 1985.

My point still stands.

Wouter

WTF? 4th in the Olympics is meager? Does 2 silver medals make Smyth average then?

I would not be so quick to jugde Paul Elvstrøm. Remember that he helmed from the trapeze and ran the mainsheet while Trine (now married with Gøran Marstrøm) trimmed the jib. He was not a youth anymore either. I think an european championship and a fourth at the olympics is a splendid result and proof of both a succesful crossover and deep knowlegde of how to sail a cat.

Was Paul sailing Tornados as late as the 84 games?

This guy won 13 world championships and 4 olympic gold medals and ofcourse many many many more local championships like Europeans and such. All of which in many different dinghy classes, 7 in total. So many succesful transitions from one design to another.

Then he switches to cats and doesn't win any olympic medals or anything else, he only wins the European champion thing.

Would you call this a succesful transition to cats when you compare it to his previous achievements ?




It certainly makes Smyth better on a catamaran then Paul Elvstrom, meaning I would like to see Randy in the Alter Cup much rather then Paul. Despite the fact that Randy has much less (if any) dinghy world championships then Paul.

THAT my dear friends is my point all along. The number of dinghy championships under your belt says not much at all about how well you can sail cats and is therefor a bad indication whether you should be in the Alter Cup event.

Wouter

For a 56 year old having sailed for fun with his daughter for just a year before the games, yes. I would definately call it a successful transition to cats. I would call anybody with a Kielerwoche win, an European championship and a fourth at the olympics, missing a bronze medal to Rob White in the last race, a very successful catamaran sailor. He did even better in other classes which was more homogenous, but that does not mean that he was not a succesful catamaran racer. You dont go to the olympics in any class without being an successful racer in the class, in my opinion (he beat the norwegian team, and I know what effort they made and how good those guys are).
Elvstrom could probably still beat both you and me speedwise on an F-16 (just dont make that long man do manouvers at his age).

Don't twist the point guys,

The point is whether the number of dinghy wins/championship wins is a good indication of whether somebody should be prefered over another sailor with no such wins for participating in the Alter Cup.

Clearly a sailor with NO dinghy champions under his belt (Randy Smyth) wins 2nd place in a Olympic cat event where a (13 + 4) dinghy championship title holder finishes 4th.

Now you tell me the indicative value of holding dinghy championships especially if they are from a different time era ?

Or in simple terms; should Randy or Paul be invited to the Alter Cup of 1984 (if Paul were American) ?


Wouter

Paul Elvstrøm was one succesful dinghy sailor who more or less jumped over on a cat and did well. That was my point and my whole basis for the above discussion.

I am not able to compare Smyth to Elvstrøm and say which one should participate in the Alter cup. As long as they qualified by winning a major class or event, I would love to see them both.

Yes, it's all about competition. And the spots at the Alter Cup should be "earned" (in a pre-ordained way), not "designated or assigned."

Mike,

My response to your ranking order was tongue in cheek, I was messing around but it certainly provoked a long winded response from you know who. I have to remember he is lurking about.

Bob

I SUGGEST THAT WE OPEN UP A SPOT IN THE ALTER CUP FOR WOUTER
TO COME AND GET PUT IN HIS PLACE , I WILL PAY ALL EXPENSES!
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH WITH THESE ATTACKS ON ANYONE AND EVERONE.
I RARELY EVER POST BUT CAN NOT HOLD BACK ON THIS ONE. AND UNTILL HE HAS BEEN TO AN A CAT EVENT, WHERE ALMOST EVERONE HAS WON SOME SORT OF TITLE HE WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE DEPTH OF THIS TALENT POOL.
RESPECTFULLY BUT TIRED OF THE ANIMOSITY, BRET MOSS

Sorry Bret,




No I don't and I will show you why.


A counter example :

Number 6 at the 30 boat A-cat nationals 2006 finished 4th in his 21 boat fleet qualifier. At double the points then the team at place 3.

This guy was the highest ranking A-cat sailor (nationals 2006) to have participated in his qualifier.



Another counter example :

Lars Guck won all 14 races during the 2006 nationals ending up at 12 points overall (2 strike-outs)
Phill Kinder had a subscription to 2nd place here and ended up at 31 points overall
And Bob Hodges (3rd) was never much danger to #1 and #2 as he ended up at 58 points overall
Number 4, Ben Hall, his high scores were a single 2nd, a single 3rd and a single 4th bringing him to 72 overall.
Pete Melvin, number 5, ended up at 82 points in total. Guess it was not his event as he also scored a 29th, 27th, 26th and a 24th (Is this the reigning A-cat world champion ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ). With such wipe-outs in a 30 boat fleet he shouldn't be in 5th overall if the other sailors knew a thing or two about sailing fast (depth ?).


This was not a particulary hotly contested event was it now ? The first indication that a class may not have much depth.


Counter example number 3 :

Number 6th (out of 30) at the A's also raced in the F18 north Americans and got 14th (out of 40). So I guess the F18 fleet was just a tad more challenging.

At least number 7 at the F18 nationals (40 boats) won his qualifier after a hot battle with number 2 of that same F18 event. With number 14 and 16 ending up at 4th and 5th in the same qualifier. All raced in a 21 boat qualifier.

So I call BS to any "special depth" claim to the A-cat class. It is just like any other class and as such it is nothing special.

Now it is time the A-catters themself learn this. Just as they have to learn that the racing doesn't stop at the first A-mark. (sorry I couldn't resist that)


If your claim is however that I'm a little arguative know-it all then I'm afraid that you are 100 % correct.


Wouter

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT AGAIN!!!! WERE YOU ABUSED AS A CHILD? WHO IS THE REIGNING A CAT WORLD CHAMP? OFFER STILL STANDS, IF YOU ARE NOT RECOVERED FROM YOUR LAST VISIT ACROSS THE POND. OVER AND OUT., BRET

Now this is funny!

Brett,

Just face it, we suck.

Bob

WOUT,

TAKE HIS OFFER! You'd get to go for FREE!!!!

Who cares if you don't win. IT'S FREE!!!