OK, to continue this discussion ...
Yesterday I was out singlehanding my Blade and managed to capsize it twice, neither time was intentional. Breeze was beginning to die off from there being enough to work up some whitecaps. After the boat went over, I was able to let out the mainsheet and traveller.
Tied to the trampoline was a tramp bag with a cushion, collapsible paddle, two 12oz softdrinks and two 16 oz water bottles. So maybe 5 lbs of gear on the boat working against me. I am 5'6" and about 172 lbs before wetsuit, jacket and harness.
Try as I might, I could not get the Blade up by myself using the techniques mentioned above.
Also couldn't get the boat to go head to wind. Best I could do by going all the way to to the spinnaker bridle and forcing down the bow was about 45 degrees to wind. As soon as I went anywhere near the main beam, the boat just went back to 90 degrees to wind. First rescuer took a line to lee and gave a little tug, effective but the boat took off like a scared mackrel when it touched down. I managed to stay connected and get back on with difficulty. The second time I needed assistance, the lifeguard rescue boat came to my help. They had a little more experrience than my first helper. They picked up the end of the mast with a boathook to the spin halyard pigtail and backed off to lee until my boat was head to wind. The guy just had to add a little more lift to get the mast climbing and the boat came over again. It was a lot easier to climb on.
I don't know how much more weight I'm going to need to get the mast out of the water by myself.
Can someone describe techniques that will work?
Thanks
John, learning the hard way

John,

I weigh the same as you and find that I need the ATRS to effectively right my boat.

ATRS-Alabama Trash Righting System

This techique was/is made famous by Tom Shannon and effectively is a 30 gallon trash bag that you keep in your tramp pouch. When capsized throw your righting line over the hull (helps if you have a loop in the line that you can connect to your trapeze harness), then fill the bag with a couple of gallons of water (not too much or it will burst bring this up into your lap and hike out as normal...voila' you'll right your boat.

Terry

Robi is your weight and 3 or 4 inches taller. He has difficulty righting. Tom and Terry are both around 6' tall and the ATRS works for them. I'm 5' 8" 225 lbs. and can right unaided, without too much difficulty.

I'm guessing you will save yourself a lot of trouble by buying one of Rick White's righting poles. Now that I'm thinking about it, I may buy one for myself.

I went through your difficulties too. One thing I learned about having outside assistance is that another option is to use them to keep the boat head to wind. One of my capsizes was while crewed. The crew stayed in the water and held onto the bow. I was surprised how quickly the boat popped up with them holding it into the wind. Other benefits. The boat is righted head to wind (no scared mackerel effect). The outside assistance isn't trying to maneuver around your masthead and all the lines and rigging there. So a line from a bow to your rescue boat should be quite effective.
You didn't mention your downhaul. It needs to be eased right off to destroy the sails aerodynamic shape. Otherwise any airflow is pulling it towards the water.
As mentioned you will need a knot or small loop on the righting line for your trapeze hook. This needs to be lower to the water than you probably think. Hanging from your arms, you probably aren't getting past the 45 degree angle. As the boat starts up you can reach up and grab the dolphin striker.

To add to the discussion if you hang by your arms, by the time you bring the boat up you will be exhausted and get yourself onto the boat will be another workout.

Always use the harness hook.

As mentioned many times before, you can use a sea anchor (drag chute) off the bow to keep the boat heading into the wind. If there is enough wind you can use the sail to basically "water start" like a windsurfer rig.

Regards,
Bob

It has been said earlier, but the downhaul really needs to be let of (almost) completely of the top of the mast and sail will hook the water or pull the mast down aerodynamically when the tip clears the surface.

Also the traveller cat needs to be completely down towards the leeward hull and the mainsheet then needs to be run out as far as possible with the sheet left. In some cases it helps to untie the travellerline from the mainsheet and run them both out totally. If there is only a little shape in the sail then righting her can quickly become very hard. Been there, done that.

Most people say they do these things but often they don't do enough of it.

For some reason my boat never lays on its ear with the mast pointing in the wrong directions. It always points with its mast to the wind or pendendicular to the wind. Maybe that has something to do with the Taipan hullshape.

I do know that ones in waves it took very long to rotate around. I learned on other boats to then stand on the bows with the righting line in on hand (loosely). The boat will now turn around. When you think you are there where you want to be then walk back to the middle if the hulls and lower yourself on the righting line. This last action only takes 2 seconds, to quick for the boat to turn back.

Good luck

Wouter

I heard a rumor in this respect that the Auzzies had started to water start from a capsize. I sort of understood the principles but could never achieve any sucess trying to right my Cat by sail out of a capsize, maybe because I didn't deploy a sea anchor? If that's what it takes to water start I'll stick to the righting line.

The water start process may be more along the lines of clambering onto the boat as she is coming down onto her feet. Somehow or other, instead of falling into the water as it comes up, you hoist yourself onto the tramp. With spinnaker halyards and self-tacking jibs I don't see this as a simple proposition.
Picture the monohull sailors that can capsize/right their boats without ever touching the water.

When two up one person can sit on the leeward hull and swivel onto the tramp as the luff hull is coming down, this isn't to difficult if the timing is right. But I'm sure there must be a way of (moving) a Cat in a certain manner to help get her upright quicker? There again in light winds in zero waves you'll always be struggling unless you're 6'0" tall and 196lbs.

5'9" and 150 lbs without sailing gear. ATRS works ok in waves and some wind. Boat postion relative to the wind is very important (after traveller, mainsheet, downhaul). I am also thinking abt the righting pole. If I know the conditions beforehand, I plan on more 2-up sailing on 2007.

I had an I-17R that I couldn't right unaided. I put an expensive carbon righting pole on it. One day I was righting and lost control of my fore-aft weight distribution: the pole got pinched against the dolphin striker and immediately snapped. I then went with one of those Murrays water righting bags and liked it better.

Then I got an old A-class and it became a moot point.

Geoff,

You couldn't right the I-17R even though it was fitted with a carbon mast ?

How much do you weight ?

Wouter

At the time I weighed about 160 lb.

In no wind I could come really close, I just needed a couple feet of mast elevation. In more wind I had a hard time keeping it from falling off: it would start to come up and then spin off when the mast tip was only a couple of feet in the air.

P.S. - I think class minimum crew weight for the I-17R was something like 175 or 180 lbs, so I was way underweight.

Thanks guys!
The group comes through again.
When on it's side the Blade seems to want to go dead downwind with the mast pointing into the wind.
I now know that one of the things I did wrong was to not let the tension off the downhaul. That does explain my not being able to move the tip of the mast up to the surface even when I was parallel to the water with my harness hooked into the righting line. The sail was definitely resistng me.
ATRS I have in abundance. Maybe I'll take a whole box next weekend and give them a try. One of the locals has a water bag. I'll ask him how it's beeen working for him. The righting pole sounds interesting too.
I'll let you know how I fair.
John

John aka JDD,

Wanna sail the day after Thanksgiving???

To all,

I love the way ya'lls institutionalizing the term ATRS. Lurkers are gonna love trying to figure it out if they missed the explanation. Someone needs to start a post on the open forum: ATRS, the latest innovation by the F16 class...

Only problem with it is that you ought not to be taking plastic bags out on the water, because some of them are bound to get lost overboard. Can be deadly for animals and a nuisance for watercraft.

I'm 185 lbs and 6'2' and I've righted my Taipan a considerable amount of times singlehandedly. I have never used anything else but a righting line.

It is true that it gets harder with decreasing winds. Most difficult is no wind and no waves. In these conditions I can lift my mast clear of the water and it will hover a foot above the water surface. Then a slight change in wind or a small wave will push it over its balancing point and the boat will come pretty quickly. I have a homebuild F16 that probably is a little heavier here and here.

The fact that I can balance the rig in mid air suggested to me that not weight was the problem but the aerodynamic behaviour of the rig. The is the only thing that can explain the sticking behaviour. Especially since the mast comes up really quickly after the it raises a little higher above the surface.

Come to think of it maybe mast rotation can have an influence as well. Anything that puts shape in the top can increase the sticking. After all. Only 1 kg (2 lbs) of aerodynamic lift downward will require an additional 8.5 kg (16 lbs) to be on the righting line. So getting rid of any of this is very important.

One more thing. I found that when the mast does stick then halve the time it helps just to hang there and wait. Of course you'll need to hook use your trap harness to the rightling line for this. In my case the mast has not stopped moving but the movement of the mast itself is creating a sailforce downward itself resisting a quick raising of the mast. However it stays in motion and slowly moves through this sticking zone like moving through a viscous fluid. Often after about 10 seconds it clears this zone and then it comes up quickly. Ofcourse the movement of the mast top in itself will be experienced by the top as wind coming from above, if the sail is only hooking slightly then it will produce downward lift then.

remember 10-15 seconds of hanging on the righting line feels like an incredibally long time but it really isn't.

In more wind and wave action this sticking action is more easily disrupted and here I don't nearly hang as much on the righting line as in no wind/no waves.

My best advice is to do several rightings on a afternoon with a crew nearby (in the water waiting) and trying several different things. See what the influence is. I suspect it may even be different for sailors using sails by different sailmakers.


To finish this post I would like to discuss a good trick. Another crew on the water (with boat of course) can easily help an F16 sailor by sailing to the mast tip (that is being balanced by the righting crew just at the surface or above it) and just push the tip up another 2 feet or give it some upward speed.

So if two F16 sailors are sailing singlehander and you want to help eachother then this is a trick that is good to learn. Additionally If you need outside help from a committee boat during racing then this is by far the most simple and fastest way they can help you. The force required at the tip is surprisingly small. The rescuers can do it with their little finger if they had too. Then they can go onto other duties. Remember this trick as it is easily explained even to non sailors and the risk of damage is by far the smallest. Surely beats any powerboat pulling.

Wouter

I don't question your reasoning, but at 6' 2" you are your own righting pole! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> The problem seems to become more difficult for shorter people.

All the more reason to use good technique! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />