All this spinnaker shape talk got me thinking about my Kite flying. I admit to being timid in the bigger gust days. I am wondering about the proper response to the fill and collapse situation.
I imagine some of this comes from the sudden acceleration as the spin powers up and you end up with a rapid rotation of the apparent wind. But even under normal circumstances what is the reponse to a spinnaker collapse? Does one adjust the spinnaker trim? Alter the boats heading? Both at the same time?

I usually sheet in to fill it, then immediately ease off again to bring it back to it's correct flying shape. If that doesn't work I bear off a bit. All this hapens in a matter of a second or so - you could almost say it's 'both at the same time'. I guess it's just a sort of intuitive reaction, I don't really think about it, I just do whatever is needed in a particular situation to keep it flying.

If I'm trying to keep high (perhaps to lay a mark) then sheeting is my first and primary option. If it's a standard downwind then I'll do whatever is going to work best.

Both. When sailing 1-up I steer the boat so that I can collapse and fill the kite using only one armful of sheet. When the boat accelerates I try to steer with it to keep the kite flying, but if it does start to collapse I give it a quick yank on the sheet as this sorts it out faster.

Sailing 2-up, I try to do the same thing, but I find it much harder to steer to the wind when I haven't got my hand on the sheet.

Paul

Adding a tell tail to your spinnaker will assist with spinaker trim. With the trend towards flatter kites on cats, it is a lot harder to trim on the curl of the luff alone. Use the tell tails as a guide for when you are oversheeted and how close you are to folding. Watch your tell tails but still role the luff of the kite slightly.

2 different things happening with this question.

1) If (when) the spin does collapse over sheet to fill it back up and immediately let it back out to the proper trim. Over sheeting is very slow

2) When flying a spin down wind you are trying to play the apparent wind. If you find that you are accelerating and having any variation in the apparent wind dirrection, especially enough to collpse the spin, you have gone way to far. You may stear what feels like a relatively erratic pattern, but the apparent wind direction should not vary. This is especially critical in double handing in the light stuff as you can not feel it in the tiller when varying direction to try and power up. My crew has to tell me when they feel presure changes in their sheet as the acceration may not be immediate. If it is blowing where you are wild thinging it down wind you still only want to come up till there is an increase in presure. Comming up too high to try and get up the hull often means you went to far too fast. Somethings are about patience and the less you can move the tiller the faster you will go.

I agree with TA get some wind indicators. Although I like three as they let you tune sheeting angle etc. I would never have thought them worthwhile until we bought a kite with them fitted. I would never sail without them now.

I actually did install some indicators but they may be to close to the leading edge when I look at the attached photo.

As Matt points out I sort of veered my question as I typed it. What I was remembering the most was my last big air attempts at sailing. I was trying to keep the boat sailing fairly deep and was getting slightly disconcerted (that may be an understatement) by the fill and collapse cycle I got into with its accompanying surges and pitches.
That was when I started the post but it did remind me of the times when I was sailing crewed and wondered about the trim/steer equation. Practice and teamwork would resolve that but I am generally going to be a 1-up sailor.

More practise Bob,

Pretty much you steer down as soon as you feel the gust coming and you head up again as soon as you feel the gust falling away. Halve a second to soon or too late and the spi will either pull you over or collapse. After a while you get the hang of it. Don't wait till the gust has hit, you must make corrections and be largely finished with them before the actual gust hits.

After a while it become second nature to do this right.

Wouter

After you get that all settled it will be time to start traping out with spin up. Once you get there, hold on, its hell of a ride!

Yuppers, as I sit here doing my armchair sailing, I am telling myself that trapezing is necessary. I can't imagine trying to handle a boat upwind in big airs without trapezing. So the benefits downhill are just the same.

Does it really pay off with respect to VMG for one-up to get out on trapeze downwind? How about two-up?

Regarding two up on the trap with spin hoisted, I noticed the balance of the boat is iffy and the rudders felt heavy. After a while my crew sat right below me on the deck while I was trapped out and the controls were much more responsive.

I only did this briefly so it is hard to explain for me.

One up trapping with spin hoisted is fun, but is it good for racing? I dont know yet. This weekend I might be able to prove if it is good or not.

Without a doubt it pays single handed - It even pays on the Inter 17 and it carries more KG around !

You get the aparent wind forward, then go faster, then sheet in some more, then bear off and then go faster !

In an F4 on the 17, I could go LOWER and FASTER wiring than someone who was not.

I cann't wait to see you prove this theory on an f16 out of your pond. At present one up on the F16 is over 10% quicker than the 17, add that to waves and a force 4!! Insure your boat well and keep well out of my way. However, given lighter winds wouldn't you find you would have to climb to high to get good speed, if you weren't on the trap you can obviously go lower.

2-up, it definitely pays to get one (but not two) out on the trapeze, if only to get the weight further back, rather than out.

1-up, good question. I've noticed that Aaron is always quick to get out on the trapeze downwind, and he's certainly pretty fast round the course. I find that I tend to lose more time through lack of control so only do it when there's a tactical need to go high. I need to get a footstrap installed...

Paul

I spoke to Aaron about this a few times in the past.

His thinking is the same as mine. Get out on the wire and get the wind moving forward.

I'll be wiring my F16 as much as I can <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



The 16 being lighter (IMO of course) means that you need to wire (and as Aaron does) more.

Yes in light winds you would climb too high, IIRC Aaron was saying he thinks anything over a F3 you must be wiring downwind.

Paul, I'll do my best to keep out of your way by being infront of you <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I don't think in the F numbers here but was kind of working on the assumption that if its breezy enough to trapeze upwind then its breezy enough to trap down and vice-versa.
Truth?

I find that trapezing under spinnaker makes the boat faster. Never more then 1 in the wires when doublehanding or singlehanding.

Just like Paul though, I too still need to fit footstraps. These things are a MUST when singlehanding under spinnaker.

Wouter

That's what I'll be working to as I start to learn to sail the new boat.



Wouter, I'd agree with both points you make. 2 on the wire is too much. Toestarps are a must have.

Hey scooby,

didn't you pick up your boat last weekend ?

Wouter