As many of you know, Mr. & Mrs. Me are switching to multi's and are at the moment leaning towards an F18. We're debating recent vs. new, so my question is how sturdy are the boats? If someone's raced one for a few years, and is selling to buy new, how worn-out is the boat with which they're parting? Aside from obvious wear/tear/damage, anything in particular to look out for? Are some makes stronger than others? Bear in mind this won't be a racing boat for us, at least not for a good bit while we get up to speed on it's handling, so our expectation is we'd be able to happily learn cat sailing on one as-is at the time of purchase. We just want to know about any known issues with F18s that are no longer brand-new, especially if they're coming from an owner that's maintained it well but driven it hard. Thx!
As many of you know, Mr. & Mrs. Me are switching to multi's and are at the moment leaning towards an F18. We're debating recent vs. new, so my question is how sturdy are the boats? If someone's raced one for a few years, and is selling to buy new, how worn-out is the boat with which they're parting? Aside from obvious wear/tear/damage, anything in particular to look out for? Are come makes stronger than others? Bear in mind this won't be a racing boat for us, at least not for a good bit while we get up to speed on it's handling, so our expectation is we'd be able to happily learn cat sailing on one as-is at the time of purchase. We just want to know about any known issues with F18s that are no longer brand-new, especially if they're coming from an owner that's maintained it well but driven it hard. Thx!
Most if not all F18's regardless of builder are strong boats and very well maintained by thier owners. I own a Nacra F18 and been very happy with it. There are serveral for sale on this site including mine. (I want a new one.)
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Solid. F18s are over-built, so I have never heard of issues like delamination or hull failure due to a missing bulkhead or something. There are a ton of top-shelf F18s for sale at stunningly low prices right now due to the introduction of the Capricorn, the Infusion, and now the 2007 Tiger. You can pretty much take your pick of designs. The only issue on a three-year-old boat might be the age of rigging and sails (particularly the jib and spin). It is a buyers market if you are willing to go with a used Nacra or Tiger, so you are likely to find a great, well-maintained, tricked-out race boat with sails that are only a few regattas old.
I would caution against only one brand - Mystere. You might find a great deal, but the supply of parts from the manufacturer has gotten iffy.
There are even used Caps and Infusions on the market now! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Have fun shopping. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: 3-year-old (or so) F18's...how delicate?
[Re: John Williams]
#92164 12/14/0610:23 AM12/14/0610:23 AM
Yeah, no hijacking my thread...if I'd wanted to start an argument, I'd have titled it "Capricorn vs. Infusion...which is faster?".
Cleveland weather? Well...my wife's been here since August when school started (teacher), but I wasn't able to join her until mid-November after we closed on the old-house. At the time, I thought I'd made a wrong turn and ended up in Seattle with all the rain, but that was temporary. Had some good lake-effect snow last week, but that's all melted and it'll be nearly 60 today. Since I'm still looking for work, I wish we'd already decided and bought the new boat...would be great saling today. Won't know about January 'till we get there, but I suspect without the tungsten-carbide bow covers, the ice will make sailing rather tough. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
None is faster. But some say the Capricorns are harder to drive downwind as they dig their bows more easely than some other f18s. So it might not be a good beginner f18 from that persective. However, the Capricorn is alot more sexy!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> mhm, eyecandy...
Stuart, surely the Hobie Tiger has to be a no-brainer? You should be able to find one at a better price than an equivalent Nacra purely on the number of them out there?
(I am assuming that the US is similar to Europe for ratios of Hobie to 'other makes' of course)
John Alani ___________ Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
You're correct regarding numbers, but the prices being asked seem to be steeper than some of the Nacra's from what I've seen listed. As JW points out, with all the new boats out or coming out, lots of sailors want new rides, so it's a great time to be looking. Maybe the Hobie folks haven't been truly bitten by the new boat bug yet.
None is faster. But some say the Capricorns are harder to drive downwind as they dig their bows more easely than some other f18s. So it might not be a good beginner f18 from that persective.
I don't buy that! Having sailed both the Tiger and the Cap I would not say that one pitchpoles easier than the other. Both have very different downwind characteristics in the breeze and dealing with the waves, but both will pitch just as easily if not driven right.
For Cleveland sailors, I think the closest Nacra dealer is The Cathouse near Saginaw, Michigan. He has a nice selection of F18s from a demonstrator Infusion to some of the early Nacra F18s. He had a recent Inter 18 but I think it sold. Mark Biggers is the dealer and it is always worth it to chat with him before you make your decision. Just don't call him before 10 AM! His website, with all the used boats listed, is cathouse1 dot com. I'm not sure who you go to for Hobies and I think Capricorns are supported by the importer (no dealers) in Florida (Jill Nickerson at Fun in the Sun). I hope this helps.
I know that you don't plan on racing until you get used to the boat, but the people you meet at regattas will be delighted to help you get up to speed with sailing these modern catamarans. I recommend you go to the first regatta possible once you get the boat and learn all you can. Go ahead and join in the racing. You will know better after the regatta what you need to focus on. Great people in this sport, so I think you have chosen well.
If racing is the ultimate goal, then it will be important to decide where you are going to race. The Hobie sailors from Michigan seem to travel to New York state and participate in the "Hobie only" racing that exists in that area. If you plan to go to New York to race, then I think you will want the Tiger, even if it is more costly (they are imported from France). The Catamaran Racing Association of Michigan has about 9 regattas a season, and the Nacra dealer attends most of those regattas. An outcome is that almost all of the CRAM members are sailing Nacras, even though CRAM welcomes all catamarans, regardless of who made it. CRAM has members that live near Columbus and attend all the CRAM regattas. CRAM's website is websitemagic dot com/cram. There are others on this forum that can tell you where to find out what the Hobie Fleet in New York is up to (Pat Bisesi, Matt Bounds, Tigerboy 1).
Hi Stewart, Also just to let you know we are having an informal F18 trailing weekend near Toronto in early May. (small inland lake so the water will be wwwarmm).
We also have a pretty active group in ontario.. The fleet here is just getting up to speed on F18s..we should have 15 boats here in 2007. There are a couple of great regattas in Burlington, Ontario..shouldn't be too far a drive for you. You can find the combined Ontario/Quebec/NY schedule at:
The F18 class is a wonderful way to race head to head without a corrected (portsmouth rated) time handicap. Yes, there are boats available on the used market. It depends on what you want to do. Sure, you can pick up an older NACRA for a fire sale price. This is due to the fact that NACRA totally changed their F18 hull design at least three times (Inter to F18 to Infusion) basically making the older boats obsolete. The Tiger is not without changes too. But the hull design remains the same as originally designed. Maybe thats why the Tiger might be higher priced on the used market. It's the preverbial arms race <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> CRAM is a great organization if you want to race. But be warned...the F18 class within CRAM is basically dead after the vast majority of their F18 membership jumped ship to the Inter 17. Of course you could always race on corrected time in the open fleet but that's not what F18 is all about.
There is a very active Hobie Tiger circuit in western NY (just up the road from you) and Ontario (Hobie Division 16) that we partake in. About a dozen Tiger F18's in attendance on average. Anyway just a few more data points to consider in your quest. Cleveland has some great waves this time of year. Ever try surfing? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Thanks, Dave. We love Toronto and often camp in Algonquin during the Summer (pulled our old Sunfish up there many times). Beautiful country...I suspect the Great White North has not seen the last of us as sailors once we're on the new boat. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
tigerboy - thanks for the info. Does anyone sail cats in the UP? Lake Superior is the cleanest body of water I've ever seen...makes Tahoe look like a sewer. The thought of spending a warm August day reaching back/forth East of Grand Marais along Pictured Rocks makes my heart smile.
Good LORD! Will you guys knock it off with the old and tired "my boat is better than yours" crap? I've beaten plenty of boats with my 04 Nacra including Tigers and Infusions, and I've also been beaten by plenty of them as well as identical boats of the same heritage.
You will not go wrong with one F18 or the other - including the older boats. In fact, a boat that has some sails with some age on them (and hence, a lower price) is probably the way to go since you guys are not focused on racing (yet!). When you get serious for racing, dress the boat in some new fabric and you'll have a competitive F18 platform no matter what you choose.
Don't know of any "organized" cat sailing in the UP or Lake Superior. Prolly just a few that pleasure sail with privately owned boats from their cottages. There is a re-born Hobie fleet (448?) in Minnesota just not sure where they sail...10,000 lakes you know.
I agree with Jake that you can't go wrong with getting an F18. The platforms are all pretty evenly matched and competitve. It really all boils down to the loose nut on the tiller <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The boats are fairly stout and bulletproof. Now is the time to buy if your serious. Come spring time they may be already sold and hard to find.
Stuart - the Hobie dealer in Detroit (well, really Pinckney, but who the hell knows where Pinckney, MI is?) has an '04 Tiger for sale that was used for one season by a guy in CRAM (I think it's got maybe 4 regattas on it.) It's fully tricked out with all the racing gear. Midwest Sailing
There are four Tigers in Detroit that get out fairly regularly - and they are of various vintages. Gregg Kittenger and I have Alter Cup boats from '02. Paul Krutty has an '04. John Bauldry (Tigerboy) has an '05. The older boats have newer sails, but all the boats are very competitive.
There are five Tiger one-design regattas within an easy drive (less than 5 hours) of Cleveland next summer. Of course, there's CRAM and OCRA (Ohio Catamaran Racing Association), too.
