Some anon knucklehead on the old forum was making alot of noise about the Tiger not being one-design, so I thought I would start a civilized discussion over here.



What is the difference between a One-Design Class and a Formula Class? Everybody wants to draw the line in different places. When, in the end, there is no real difference.

A Class is a set of rules which govern the configuration of a boat. Some are very strict, some are very loose, some are controlled by mfgs, some by Class Associations.

KH was trying to make the point that a Tiger was not One-Design because of the recent changes made to the Class rules (self-tacking jib, new boom, mast rotator, etc.). Obviously KH has never been around Hobie 16 Class racing, the Holy Grail of strict mfg One-Design, or they would have seen many subtle variations in the boats. How many different jib sheet upgrades has Murrays sold. They made a living selling parts to MODIFY Hobie 16s. Now if even a CLASS LEGAL Hobie 16 can have OWNER modifications, what boat is truly mfg One-Design?

Then there is the Tornado. Many call it a One-Design because the rules are strict and the hulls are almost all identical externally. But other parts have extreme variations and anyone can build one in their backyard. It's rules tend to make all of the boats perform almost identically under all conditions and crew weights.

F18 has very strict rules and anyone can build one, but the hulls vary a great deal. Different F18s have different strengths and weaknesses under different wind, water and crew conditions.

The A Class is very similar to the F18 in variation but has less strict rules.

The 18 square meter is often called a Developemental Class, but what draws the line?

It seems the this One-Design, Formula, Developmental Class label has just become an excuse for the less informed to start an argument.

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE if a mfg or a group(Nacra 6.0w/spi?) wants to sponsor regattas and race together and refer to it as a One-Design.

All of this noise over the definition of a few words which have no "official" delineation.

It is just "poor cousin" jealousy.



I am assuming they actually have a boat to race.

Sam-

You have essentially delineated the main differences- That is the "strictness" or limits of the rules regarding a particular boat or class. And there are even "sublevels" apparently since people refer to "strict one designs" (as opposed to apparently "looser" one-designs).

However the terms ARE useful IMO as a general indication of the "strictness" of the rules regarding a particular boat or class (realizing these DO shange once a class is "established" and may tend to cloud the distinction).

I'm sure you know most of this but allow me to enunciate to try to get others involved in this discussion-



Generally most strict are the "one designs" although great variety can exist here and who determines the rules (class, owners, manufacturer) varies. The Tornado is considered "one design" because all boats must in fact conform to a single "design" originally approved and subsequently slightly modified. Only small differences are allowed and these are generally in place to account for production differences (although some builders/owners try or do use these "discretions" to try to gain an advantage). However exactly WHO makes the various parts of the boat is entirely open as long as they meet the "design" specifications.

Hulls, spars, sails, rigs are generally tightly controlled and either offerred by one maker or like in appearance, etc.



"Formula classes" are an offshoot of the old "Development classes" (which included the "A, B, C, and D" classes which had very minimal rules or limits thereby encouraging development of new rigs, hulls, materials, etc.) in an attempt to allow different manufacturers to build boats that were similar enough to allow them to race together head-to-head (sort of like NASCAR) such that the best prepared boat and best skipper will win, overall. Boats can be optimized for a particular crew to some extent and/or particular conditions which may give them an "edge" under those circumstances (light air flat water vs heavy air and waves for instance) but would result in a consequent disadvantage in others. The true aim of any Formula Class is to have all the boats reasonably close in performance (IMO), although this performance may move "up" in relation to other boats outside the class, the Class as a whole should be relatively "equal". Boats may only superficially resemble each other and will typically be supplied by multiple manufacturers with the Class in control of the rules.



Development classes allow much more experimentation, such that "breakthrough" boats can, and are encouraged, to develop so whoever can come up with (ie "develop") a faster hull shape, better rig, use some new material, etc. should "win"- again these can be optimized for certain conditions (ala the "C class Little America's Cup boats") but there is NO intent for all the boats to be close. In fact an intent of the Classes is for the boats to constantly "develop" into faster boats.

There are very few (any??) true 100% Development "classes" anymore- even the IACC boats have restrictive "rules" in place to limit costs (and look at how much the still manage to spend?!) and try to keep competition somewhat close.



IMO this is what has resulted in the confusion you allude to regarding the distinction between these classes: Many of the "Development" classes have CHOSEN to apply more restrictions (like the "A" cat rule on minimum boat weight) to their class in efforts to encourage more "even" competition between boats, increase competitive lifespans of boats, keep costs reasonable, etc.

Perhaps we should all agree on definitions for the terms "One design", "Formula" and "Developmental", with perhaps subcategories of each to lessen this confusion?



Kirt

The term one design as used in the catamaran world was defined by Hobie as a marketing tool. The sold the public on the notion that costs to the consumer would be lower then a "non one design class" because your boat would not be obsolete or dated by changes in equipment and sails. They coupled this notion with ... a negative one. "those other class's can be bought by the guy with the most money.... is that the game... you want to play?". Finally... they really make the consumer feel guilty when they argue that the SMOD will be the fairest form of competition... (if you don't play this game... somehow you play unfairly. aka cheater).



I believe the comments about the continual updates to the Tiger platform (in order to remain competitve with the other Formula class boats) are addressed to those tiger sailors who still argue that the Hobie concept of SMOD is still the cheapest, fairest and purest way to race sailboats. The author just doesnt see any advantage to calling a Tiger one design and probaby thinks that the restrictions of buying only Hobie parts and sails is not the cheapest and best way to go racing anymore.



Bottom line... the words "one design" carry a LOT of baggage in the USA dating from the distant past and carried onwards to this day.

I think the big gripe about the Tiger's one-design claim is that the winning Tigers at F18 events are often not "Tiger Class Legal." Doesn't mean factory-stock Tigers aren't one-design, just means that a lot of F18 Tigers have different masts, sails, etc., and so THEY are not SMOD, but rather formula (the original intent of the boat). At least, that's what I've heard the most bitchin' about. Doesn't really matter to me - I'm too light for a F18 anyway.

Michael Coffman

>>What is the difference between a One-Design Class and a Formula Class?



I think that the publically PRECEIVED difference is that in a oe-design class everybody sails with identical hardware and in a formula class everybody sails with comparable hardware.



It is my perceiption that -lets call him or them- ANTI TIGER FAN(s) are against the Tiger class splitting off from the F18 class for reasons of one-designess.



Each time the arguments seem to focus on the facts that Tiger class rules are almost indentical to the F18 setup apart from the fact that all stuff had to be bought through Hobie. Implicetly they are hinting at the fact that the Tiger class is in fact a class of F18 complient Tigers racing in a class event that excludes all other makes.



They consistantly attack the fact that there is no defination of a single Hobie tiger setup that would make a Tiger race a race with "indentical" boats as One-design seems to suggest.



Personally I think the anti's have a case; Tiger fans one-design tiger class is actually a Tiger Formula class which is not unlike to mother F18 class from which the Tiger has come from. Although I agree with Tiger fan that it is is easier to exchange tuning tips between tiger sailors than between say a Nacra and a Hobie F18 sailor.



With respect to your H16 example; Overhere the Hobie One-design rules were so strickt that crews were measuring the diameter of the stays of boats of other crews to discover wether they were fitted with the larger diameter and therefor stiffer US stays. When found these had to be removed. With this counter example I feel that the H16 class can claim that this class races Indentical boats and therefor rightfully refer to being a One-design class as such a class is preceived by the public



The Tiger class is getting less and less Indentical (one-design) with each passing year and even the builder Hobie cat Europe has expressed that it sees the Tiger as a F18 boat.



The most recent post on this topic on the old forum gives a describtion of all the changes made in the past. He has forgotten to metnion the fact that in 1995 the tiger had a 3 way jib sheeting setup mounted on the tramp though and that it had a pin head sail instead of a squaretop in the first years.



With these changes the difference between Tiger and Tiger could well be of the same magnitude as the difference from say a Nacra F18 to a Hobie Tiger mark 2002.



And as you say Sam, the label "One-design" or "Formula" doesn't mean a thing anymore in this particular case. And it can argumented that such a lable may even be deceptional to the general public.



And ofcourse I'm sure that some emotion is linked to the posts as Kirt says; Maybe they feel that one-design Tiger is a marketing ploy that is only hurting the F18 class to which the Tiger is intimately linked. Maybe they want to argue that hurting the F18 class will eventually also hurt the Tiger class in the end.



WOuter

GOOD POSTS all-



Don’t know if we solve the cat sailing world's problems here, -but it is fun trying.



Kirt supplied a good history of categorizing cat design by basic L B W SA specs, -basic measurements first established in A B C D classes originally in effect loosely defined developmental Formula type classes. , and good definition of O D -development -and Formula, Think you have a good grasp on it Kirt .

--Yes, they are just similar class variations each individual class, Formula Class, development class each on their own theme with varying degrees of limitation on design development within defined establish basic specifications and similar measurements.



Interesting to note the difference even between the iF 18 rules and the N A F-18 rules which have a much tighter restriction on sails, having to conform to a basic pattern and be made and available only through accepted approved mfg., not open to all sailmakers or various shapes within a sq. ft limitation like most other F or dev classes like A s.



A key in developing fast designs is as most good A Class catsailors will tell you is matching the sail -mast charicteristics to weight and having flexability through a wide range of conditions from flat to full along with sail controls.

-Check out the Elliot main on the new N-F-18s, --really good looking in the new material. {At C F 3 in Aug}--This is the best aspect of Formula type racing -competition between builders driving them to make BETTER boats. The Tiger would not be the refined excellent design it is without this, and the numerous dev changes it has evolved through, It will continue to improve in every way imaginable as on all Formula boats and classes, -



Building on established classes and encouraging new Formula classes is the best way to revitalize the sport.

Hobie really built large numbers in the sport through the 70s and 80s and historically provides great racing . Most purchase an H brand to race in a class because that is most catsailors preference. Really believe it alienates H catsailors from participating in other events when class racing is not provided, they do not attend and do not return, much like others who are placed in separate rating classes with dis similar boats. . This does not help promote the sport in either direction ,but serves to seperate catsailors .. It is simply a matter of preference and degree of difference and often-practical application.

I understand it is quite frustrating to many that experience only small numbers showing at race events of diverse design where rated type racing is the only option . Also to thiose that invest their time and energies to develop rated racing rules.

But residing all catsailing to this type of scenario is not the answer .We must look to what historically has been successful how things have eloved and changed and what models are currently proving to work and why.-Then logically work towards and help those strive rather than retard and discourage their formation , growth, and development .



In the I-20 class there are 3 jib versions, 3 spin versions the latest being much improved, variations in boat weight, board and rudder materials have changed from early models, there are differences in mast flex. and stiffness, -now self-tacking jib kits and variations in hardware spin and sail control leads to name a few . --This occurs with most all supposed brand one design classes, they develop, -but are certainly not O D but would label them brand development. Many would rather have this option of boat development in their own hands thus the reason for more open Dev. and Formula Classes providing more options and better choices and better boats through direct competition for catsailors.



Blaming H or any mfg. for decline in the sport is not realistic. Hopefully H and all will realize that by producing better boats like the Tiger and hopefully an improved 20 ftr and by promoting the sport and helping it grow in interesting attractive Formula type class racing as has been successful in Europe is a much more viable marketing strategy than isolated smaller brand class racing that have been in decline.

The market share would be much larger in a growing active racing continental environment than to continue H-centric policy in declining numbers, again especially considering the EurO. market existing proven model.



A note on rated racing here, --it only functions or works secondarily to good healthy class racing which rating numbers are based on, --class specifications,

- Now realize these large performance variations and differences between boats in class or supposed brand one design class mentioned above and in other posts on the Tiger and other boats . O k, -now look at the even larger variation allowed in ratings in ranking classes overlooked in spin sizes, mainsail sizes, all types of modification, {covered by one blanket mod factor only} through those large varables and differences additionally not accounting for any variable factors previously noted and one begins to realize how inaccurate it is for anything but an interesting way to average diverse boat designs with these numerous unaccounted for variables in speed. Rated racing is intended for use in smaller diverse groups of boats for fun club racing, not applied to major distance races or large events. It is a matter of practical application for many other reasons as well.



Attracting sponsors for major events and boat builder mfg. and boat dealer support is better accomplished in class racing that really helps promote the sport. Lets be realistic, a monetary basis is required in all endeavors to be viable, even charitable or volunteer type organizations, -funds are still needed, fund-raisers raffles charity auctions etc.-The sport of catsailing is no different.

Sailors need to purchase sails boat gear and equipment and builders need to sell them. Sponsors help with event and even team expenses in some instances and special events. Most great sailing clubs -fleets and events have a great boat dealer and or builder as an integral part to support them again best accomplished in class racing where there is a direct interest in race results on an equal boat Vs boat basis. -It is also much more interesting and easily understood to the general public --being perceived as fair sport, -again attracting spectators and sponsors for events and new people involved and into the sport.

Also it is very unlikely that catsailors who purchase a boat to race in a class as most all intend to do, such as large sometimes separate H class HISTORICALLY PROVIDING GREAT CLASS RACING will embrace the notion of rated racing, but as we begin to see in Formula the ability for most to readily accept this type of more inclusive class racing in larger numbers.

Rated racing is needed and is fun but not where the real action is in racing as per example used in the Olympics , regional class championships , National or Continental championships , Worlds such as As in N E this Aug. -Worrell 1000 or proposed Tybee Island race should ever be , and all races where true test of sailing skill on reasonabley similar boats with the option of making them equal to provide fair equal boat vs boat racing is the priority.

Most will accept rated racing in this proper secondary role when race organizers wish to include it with class racing and certainly not at the exclusion of any new class trying to form or class racing when ever possible and available.



There seems to be great designs and support for the existing Formula Classes which will inevitably lead to their growing numbers, active class racing, and hopefully more interesting and exciting major regattas and distance racing events in N A.



Lets define these classes so all is readily understood and help promote them in every way possible.

Carl

I don't know much about cat racing yet but know quite a bit about several forms of car racing. I've read a tremendous amount of debate from zealots of formula vs one-design vs developmental classes, etc. Those actively involved in promoting cat racing can learn important lessons from the various car racing segments. Like it or not, NASCAR (which bores me to death) is by far the most successful major racing series in the US and offers much better competition than Formula 1, LeMans prototypes, sports cars, IndyCar, or CART. The only other racing of similar success but on a smaller scale is the Euro touring cars. What category is NASCAR? A STRICT FORMULA CLASS WITH 3 MAJOR MARQUES. Yes, the "developmental" (prototype sportcars) and "one design" (e.g. SCCA spec racers) have small, loyal followings. But it is the FORMULA series (NASCAR, Touring Cars) that attract the attention of millions...

That's an interesting comparison. NASCAR could be attributed to the likes of F-18 and F-18HT and even the Tornado. The F-18 has done exceptionally well in Europe and it appears that the F-18HT is making a strong presence in the US (one manufacturer of an F-18HT anyway).