Mark
Where were the handicap Nationals held last year?
All of the Alter Cup qualifiers are held to become eligible for a one design event.
I understand the need for both types of events and am not opposed to handicap races when necesary.
Why is it the Madcatter is consistantly one of the most attended regattas?
I believe it's because it's one of the best sailing events, not because of the format.

You mentioned the H14 with it's good number. If I take mine and I am the only one, I could be way behind at every finish and still potentially win an Alter cup qualifier.
I wouldn't feel real good about that. Not to mention how much easier it is to sail with no pressure on you.
Your desicions change, your heart rate changes and mistakes are made much easier.
I have been in the lead at a H14 Nationals and been as high as third in a H16 Nationals at a 68 boat event.
I can tell you I about had a cow.
When you go around A mark and head downwind with 65 boats chasing you, the brain fries, the heart rate goes way up and your head is on a swivel.
Learning to sail well when in that state is probably harder then learning the sailing itself.

Hoping to get that feeling again is what keeps me going back.
If you have had the chance to sail large one design fleets, you get it.

PS: Jake, I know you get it, I'm not picking a fight.

I couldn't agree more! Now if I can just figure out how to keep from tanking it in those situations.

An all formula system would be great, first over the line in each formula wins. All the benefits of one design competition but with the versitility of having many different manufacturers building boats for each different formula. It has all plusses and no negatives. May not be 100% possible yet but it seems to be gravitating that way for the not so distance future.

Hi Pat

When you have 10 competitive sailors on the race course in a one design fleet... That will be great fun and I agree.. its what keeps you going racing. Pat sails hobie 16's in an area where there are lots of really good sailors who go racing ALOT. So Hobie 16's are very likely to get a great turnout.. they have critical mass. Few events in you divisions or div 11 get less then 10 hobie 16'. I wouldn't dream of arguing that you should change anything about your Hobie 16 racing program. Would putting those same sailors on 10 different boats racing handicap be less fun... Absolutely. Is one design more fun then handicap... Sure.

Where does that leave Jake and Ding... the fact is they can't get close to 10 boats... So what happens when they try to force the issue.

This thread starts by the bashing of all handicap racing because. its not fair and it sucks. This point of view has a real impact.

First
If its such a bogus endeavor... WHY sail the US Sailing Alter qualifier regattas (portsmouth) at all. Just make political decisions on who goes and be done with it. Why have texel... the largest handicap cat race in the world. 600 boats... We don't do this and so there is clear merit in handicap racing as evidenced by these two organizations.
I appreciate you acknowledging a role for handicap racing. We are not arguing that the two kinds of racing are the same.

Second,
Jake says... we have been doing it this way for decades.
Insanity has been defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

I assert that when you have so few boats that go racing that the sorting of the sailors into one design fleets is counter productive and does not lead to growth. It more then likely leads to that flushing action.

The attempt to form the small one design F18 fleet before critical mass of both the F18 sailors and the left over sailors on other boats separated the sailors into small groups. Even though your clubs attempts to make everyone feel welcome... If you have 10 boats... 8 of them the same...(ALMOST a one design class by my criteria..) What kind of race is it for the 2 boats that are left on their own in a 2 boat fleet? How long do they play the game of racing sail boats?

How INSANE DOES IT GET. As a result of the Hobie Edict... Hobie defined a class as ONE BOAT.(See their white paper) so the 204 Madcatter in 06 listed 2 TheMightyHobie18's in a class and 1 hobie 20.
In 05 you had one FX1m, one TheMightyHobie18 and one H18S in a class.
In O4 you had 3 classes of ONE BOAT!

My point should be obvious dividing a small number of sailors into fleets of one or two boats is just insane! (This is also proof that 204 throws a hell of a party!)

When you take a small number of racers and split them into two... you have changed that unstated social contract... Things fall apart.

I assert that when you constantly and predictably BASH the handicap system as unfair.... Then a good result by a sailor is undermined. This is obviously a disincentive to go racing and counterproductive to keeping the sailor active. Why should that guy come back with his boat... FEW people are such assholes that they want to join in an activity but carry the burden that their participation is called unfair. Likewise.. few people want to play the game when they are isolated and last.

With respect to your specific questions.
Pat as you are well aware.. No handicap nationals.... On the other hand Alter qualifiers and the Spring Fever regatta, Cat Fight and Canadequa are probably the biggest handicap regattas in the country last year. Most find those events worthwhile and lots of fun.

Why is the Madcatter so successful... My guess... Its a hell of a kick off party for your sailing region.. You guys have achieved event status (Div 11 deliberately avoids a conflict so that people can attend without a conflict I have been told its colder then hell usually! but you have lots of rum for this problem!

I argue that your madcatter would be well served by having a handicap race for those classes with one or two boats. Hell ... you probably would grow larger!... Might even see a 21 lumber out there. not to mention the 21SC.. the 18SX, the 17sport, the Hobie Fox, the 14, the 14 turbo,

Now... if you want to tell me that its a good thing to have classes of one boat.....I will need a few more drinks of Christmas cheer to even attempt to understand that one!

Mark

Very well said Mark !
All our racing is on SCHRS handicap, even when we have 10 or more of one class. When we have a reasonable number of one design cats at an event, we give extra prizes (1st, 2nd & 3rd) to that class. At our Nationals, all classes start together. We have overall prizes, and prizes for fleets of 6 or more. This results in a great social circuit and no cat sailors feel left out at an event, no matter what class they sail.

Might I add a N20 or two . . . <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

How does all this talk about boats here and there, formula vs one desing vs open class (portsmouth) relate to the game over at www.tacticat.com ??

Seriously, how?

Mark, I have NEVER wanted to sail handicap maybe it was those years as a kid sailing in the Opti fleet that ruined me!

You want to sail open, knock yourself out, I for one want no part of it. I'd rather sail against 5 teams straight up rather than 15 against the clock. When you finish 10 minutes ahead or behind someone you are no longer racing them, you're racing the clock, and racing the clock is not what I'm in it for.

I will shamelessly promote OD/Formula racing because that is what I enjoy. You don't and that is your choice but don't condemn me for it, and don't blame the decline of open racing or multihull racing in general on the OD/Formula fleets.

Yes the "Frankenboat" is mine (the term not the boat), and yes I will NEVER say the current handicaping system is fair! As far as I'm concerned the handicap system is a fairy tail.

I heard a rumor that the Olympics are thinking about an open multihull class, any truth to that?

Quit whinnin'! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

That's the best you have Pete "Quit whinnin"? Come on, at least make a freaking effort! Mr. Tiki "oh no, whitecaps" Pete.

We are debating whether handicap or OD is better to help our sport grow.
Maybe it has nothing to do with it.
Maybe it's the quality of the events.
Canandaiguia is an open event I like to go to.
It's a mass start that has handicap winners and breaks out classes. Great club house, hot tub and can be very windy.
Madcatter is OD and people travel to it and register without even bringing a boat. What does this tell you.
Our friends from PUR come every year and will tell you, it's not for the sailing.
BTW it has been 75F as much as it has been 45F and sometimes both in the same weekend.
I would love to go down to Tradewinds in a couple of weeks because it's sounds like it will be a lot of fun.
( How are races run at Tradewinds? Seperate starts? etc..)
New people don't know the differance and we need to get them on a boat and let them decide for themselves.

Mark: When your on your meds and not ranting we probably agree more than disagree. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Oh and by The Hobie Edict..
You mean asking Divisions and fleets to follow the charter they originally agreed to.

"Interesting. No wait, the other thing: tedious."

Pat wrote
"Canandaiguia is an open event I like to go to.
It's a mass start that has handicap winners and breaks out classes. Great club house, hot tub and can be very windy."

(Yes, we probably do agree more then we disagree and I had no idea how to spell Canandaiguia)

Dermot wrote
"At our Nationals, all classes start together. We have overall prizes, and prizes for fleets of 6 or more. This results in a great social circuit and no cat sailors feel left out at an event, no matter what class they sail. "

That is my agenda... If you have class's like Syracuse.. outstanding... A decent mix of events is great (Syracuse might consider solutions to 3 classes with one boat in each of those class.'s ... but hey there is hope)

When you see that 10 boats in one design and 10 boats in open is not gonna happen...Recognize that the sociology of groups requires attention. Change the program. Don't divide a small group of cats into tiny one design classes. Stop the continual war cry.. "Handicap sucks".

So Dave
If you don't like it... fine... don't go to the Alter qualifier, or any of the other regattas where you might get scored on handicap and in your one design class... But don't keep chiming in... Handicap sucks... Don't snipe that X's boat has a cheater rating...

Remember the old maxim: "The desire to win often results in sailing poorly. The desire to sail well often results in winning". If you can make sailing well the objective you take a lot of pressure off yourself.(and your results will improve)

Rick usually breaks out the fleets I think into classes of 5 or more (perhaps 4?) Each classes usually get their own start but I seem to recall that Rick does a rolling 3 minute start sequence in order to get all the classes going in a reasonable amount of time.

As somebody who gets to deal with handicap systems on weekly basis during the sailing system, a few observations.

But up front, I'll agree that OD is better for attemping to achieve heads up racing. But, I still maintain that open class is one of the best way to bring new folks into the sport, simply because it can be achieved at a significantly reduced entry cost.

Anyway, Mark is spot on that bad mouthing the handicap systems is counter-productive. Yes, yes, yes, yes - we all know there is no such thing as a perfect handicap system. But, in reality, the Portsmouth system works pretty well especially if you use the wind corrections. But, when everybody sits around bitching about ratings they forget the biggest contribution to the boat's performance is the crew.

As Fleet scoring person and head cheerleader, I get to see this all the time. The biggest thing for me is to help people see ways they can improve their performance and "sail to their number". When people get on the "PN sucks" bandwagon, all they see is the numbers. They forget that they were slow tacking each time, that they went on a flyer when everybody else was in the middle, that they were late to the line, that it took them awhile to figure out they had some sail trim wrong. The answer I try to give people is to look at their performance and identify the areas they need to work on. When people are buying into the "it doesn't matter because the ratings suck" BS they become frustrated and drop out. This happens at the front and the back of the Fleet.

Interesting thing this year - the Taipan 4.9 in our fleet, being sailed by an excellent sailor, was crushing in the uni with spin configuration. He was sailing well, others were sailing well, but he felt his number was too high. He looked into it and petitioned me to use the rating for the F16 sloop. So we gave him that rating, and it was more fair. But he still won! One of the times beating the SC-22 the SC-22 skipper (our commodore and experienced at all this as well) lamented that the rating must still be wrong, because the numbers indicated that he needed to be a handful of minutes faster on the course, so something must be wrong. But then we looked at it. The 4.9 had sailed an excellent race. He (SC 22) had sailed a good race as far as start and picking the shifts, but admitted that his tacks were slow, as for some reason he and the crew were out of sync a bit. How much? Oh, about 5-10 seconds slower per tack. Adding them up for the number of tacks on the multi-lap course, and what do you know - it was just about the time difference for the win. If we had been simply bashing the ratings, two sailors would have stayed disillusioned and others would have caught the attitude.

In our area, the two one-design Fleets are A-Cat and Nacra-20. To play one-design you'll need to get into those costly and technical designs. You'll get people who were already sailors, and other cat sailors to join in. New people trying to figure out if this is something they want to try will be intimidated by that I think.

We've had so many people joining our ranks in boats they found for nothing, getting the bug and moving up to ignore. I'm one of them. Without an open class venue most would not have joined in. Some are now moving into the OD classes in the area - fantastic! So now I'm on the prowl for the next bunch of people who drug a Hobie-18 out of their neighbor's yard.

There was a race that used to be held in Ocean City called the Seacret's Cup. It was an open event, was great fun, and people in our area tried to do it when they could. Then it was changed to an OD format as a finishing race for the local series. Result was that none of us changed boats to be there, I think the race has since died. It certainly quickly fell from the event it used to be once the change happened. Still cherish the Mount Gay hat from that one...

So, mark me down as somebody who backs keeping an open class in events of all sizes!

I'm detecting some animosity... was it something I said?

WTF! [bilgewater]! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I would like to add reduced time commitment to the reduced entry cost factor above.



I don’t think you will find any newbies in either of our one design classes, the A classers or the N20ers.



I was one as well, H16, $1300 and no time commitment outside of sailing/racing it.



Ditto.

What's amazing is every single one of you have the answer. It seems the family oriented groups are stronger though and go the distance with there events that allow both handicap and class racing .The unending struggle to squeeze everyone into F16 or 18 or open seems to be only a problem for the part time sailor the "in betweens",that cannot afford new boats at this time .In order to get moving there needs to be more general interest in the racing as an event and also less ego's or clique's within sailing groups.I have not been to many races but the ones I have been there is always a clique between the new and older boats,I could very well be wrong but have been a victim of it ,this is probably to be expected and is a turn off. Some of you have been to our older on a limb but hopefully soon to be reorganized cat events here in Delray with a new life. I too have had to try and grow up quickly as I am a relative new-comer in the sport .It is easy to get excited into having the next best thing and not concentrating on the basics. On a side note personally I would like to see Delray as having the full spectrum of events.There unfort seems to be not enough sailors for all the product line! Any Idea's to promoting a plan to the City without them runing scared is more then welcome.Their are 60 spots on the beach plus private storage at the south end for none-Delray residents. Generally there is good spirited helpful individuals and the pay-it foreward attitude goes far. Merry Christmas and Happy holidays to all.........Bob Grubb Delray Fl.