I gave you another rating star for being such cheeky son of a beach.

This is like saying do we need anything more than a Bristol Freighter because we could all find out who the best flyer was.
The only arguent for an H16 is that there are so many.
This question is about the best possible world of cat sailing so why do we want an outdated, heavy, expensive sea plow?
I might remind you that in the best possible cat world all cats are cheap.
F18 are also out because they are tooooo heavy. Lighten the weight rule for them and sure.

best world for beach cats, let me see.

A nice building with 100+ rooms. Huge 50ft by 100ft heated pool.
Game room for the youngens
Spa for the wifeys
Gym for the grunts
Massage parlor for the crews
Good buffet restaurant - cheap, $5bf, $8 lunches and $10 dinners

A mile long wite sandy beach.
The ocean must be a bay, or lake. No much wave action, no boaters, no pwc.
Remotely and computer controlled bouys to set the course (done? no, possible? yes!)
Full weather station to support the computer to set the course.
Plenty of shower heads on the beach to rinse off after a day of sailing.

Boats:
F16, F18, F20 (tornado or I20, but not both) A cat and H16s
Good constant wind ranging from 10 to 15kts

ah I wonder what else!

Interesting that the 17R didn't make your list <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[quote]The ocean must be a bay, or lake. No much wave action[quote]

what a sissy.

Punching out through the waves is the one of the best parts!

Niether did the F16 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
i prefer waves to surf, not to sail. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I gotta get you on the front side of a swell on a N20 dude.

I think we would need to define the categories and then choose a boat that best fits each level.

Anyhoo - my $0.02 worth - 5 boats

High performance (Double hander) - F18 but make the weight around 150-160 kgs

High performance (Single hander) - A cat

Recreational Double hander - TheMightyHobie18.

Recreational Single hander - small nacra thing (can't remember what it was called)

Entry level - Hobie wave.

Obviously the hp categories are self explanatory. The recreational level I would see for the sailor who is new to the sport and would act as a feeder to the hp categories. It would act as a lower performance boat for those sailors that are not physically capable of running the hp boats, or want something a little more forgiving to take the family out on.

The entry level would be something that **anybody** can sail. A toy for the kids that mum or dad can also have some fun on and introduce more people into sailing.

Tiger Mike

I think that I would actually keep the Torando in as a choice. No, it is not a boat for the masses, but I for one still think that it needs greater visibility in this country. Maybe it gets classified in as an F-20 even though it is a one design B-Class, which could alos use a great deal of promotion if that is ever to truly get off the ground. As to the other classes, A-Class, F-16, F-18 and Wave as the quote F-12 type cat.

A Cat, Hobie16, Formula 18, Tornado, Wave

A Class
B Class
C Class
D Class

Actually I don't think the Tornado qualifies as a B-class anymore (too much sailarea) and would now fall into the C-class category.

My personal optimal listing would also consist of only multi-manufacturer Formula boats and I consider the A-cats to be a formula type of class as well.

Wouter

Answering the question :




So max 5 classes that have to exist at this time already. I'm personally really favouring formula classes as they allow each builder to participate in it. Keeping all builders in business and unifying all their efforts to maintain the given class instead of competing eachother into extinction.



-1- Entry level and basic catamaran :

Dart 16 **** but then opened up to formula status.

Reason : Cheap, simple, fun, relatively fast and takes a beating (rotomolded) while still looking like a real catamaran. With sufficient volume produced this boat can be rather cheap indeed. Just as fast as a Hobie 16, so no loss there. I even think this boat forfills the original ISAF requirement better then the SL16 for the youth class as well. Additionally the rotomolded nature of the Dart 16 make it very attractive for rental purposes and for beach front resorts. It is just a full cat without the drawbacks of the true racers.



-2- Entry racer (next step up from Dart 16):

Formula 16

Reason : It is a nice step up from the Dart 16 (introducing the spinnaker) and it is still well suited to relatively young and small sailors like teenagers while not giving up real performance. Additionally it is a very versatile boat that also allows singlehanding by Dad for example. And lets not forget that "mom and dad" or "parent and kid" can race the boat very well too. It is just a very smart investment of money. Not too much risk involved in buying one. Additional junior can singlehand it or race it with parent and get maximum time on the water learning skills without worrying about the crew blues too much. At this time the boats are also noticeably cheaper then the performance oriented other designs.



-3- Full force racer

Formula 18

Reason : This seems a pretty obvious choice to me. At this time it is just the best attended, very highly contested class in the world and the boat are true sport boat requiring a fit crew. Note how quite a few Tornado crews are using this class as their training ground.



-4- Distance racer (big boy boat) :

Tornado basic design but then worded in a true formula class

Reason : 190 kg for a 20 footer is just too much. The 155-160 kg of the tornado is just better so why not form a Formula class around the Tornado design. The first entry will then already be available, the Tornado itself. Hobie can then take the Carbon Fox out of the mothballs and companies like AHPC have something to get their juices going because a 190 kg F20 really doesn't do it for them. The Eagle 20 carbon design will also be a quick addition to this class. This "opened up" Tornado class will also have enough sail power to carry the big boys and its 20 foot length and jib will make it a good distance racer for the Worrel 1000 etc. We just need to get the price down from Marstroms Royal price list. Making it a formula class will do that by adding competition.



We have still one choice left out of the 5 allowed. Even more so as I choose :


Singlehander :

Formula 16

Reason : At one time we are going to have spinnakers on our singlehanders. It is a more challenging test of sailing skill and more spectacular to spectators. Additionally if a singlehander doesn't have one in an open class race then he is pretty much destined to loose. World-wide alot of races are indeed open class. At this time there is only class that combines a spinnaker with the feel of an A and the choice is therefor obvious. For sailors who really don't like the spinnaker, leaving it off and race the F16 in a spi-less race series is a very practical solution. Much more then adding a spi to the A and race it as such.


However this last choice leaves open the 5th class to choose as the F16 has been chosen twice for different roles.

So now I'm thinking really hard about which sailor desire is not covered by the choices above. The only one I can think of now would be the desire to buy a really inexpensive "throw it on your car roof" and go sail boat. Something really easy to rig like the Laser 1 was to many people. The Dart 16 may still be to large to be sufficiently easy to handle and its price is low but not really low. So I choose :


-5- The fun to buy and rig class :

Hobie wave (but allowing other builders to build it under license)

Reason : stated above.



Wouter

If we are starting again, then the SA limit can be increased for each to include spinnakers.



Agreed

But what about the new youth cat, the SL16?

I think even the mainsail+jib combo for the new Tornado is too much for the B-class limit.

If we extended the limit to also include the spi's then we loose all distinction between B,C and D classes. Afterall a F18 has more combined sailarea then both a C and D class when counting the spi area. In short the old A,B,C and D class structure is not suitable to be used anymore. Besides the very open structure of the limits killed its succes as it is too unlimited. In effect only the A's survived in any serious sense.

Better to start a new.

Wouter

I seem to remember some guys working on a design that would be alike the named F12, with a unstayed rig as used on landyachts and laser-1. I still think that setup to be a great cheap laser-alike version for the cats but far better looking.

I hope its development will get continued at some time.





The low aspect daggerboard shown is actually a pivoting centreboard. And the downhaul and mainsheet are combined into one single control as shown under a free hanging boom, no gooseneck. No further cleats or blocks, no trapeze just hiking. And a very simple but top secret traveller system using two blocks and a high tension line (but no cleats). As said this must be a dirt cheap catamaran. Effective, fast but dirt cheap.

And lots of fun.

Wouter

Wouter your choices sound very reasonable.Who might be the company willing to accomplish such a feat first.

I know which design team will be able and willing to perform such a feat first, but the real trick is getting to the customers and make it economically viable.

Personally I would love to sail a boat like the F-12 as described. If it can be build below 50 kg then it will be quite a fast boat as well. The small size will mean that you can cut corners everywhere and make it both really simple, light and cheap. It could well be as easily to rig as a laser-1 and that in itself will make it exiting.

Pretty much everything has been developped already the unstayed rig can just be stolen of a Standard Landyacht and the sails luff curve can be increased to operate at the lower windspeeds that a sail boat requires. The technology is already well developped in this area. There are few (landyacht) sailmakers around that understand these types of mast really well. How to build up the mast from alu tubing is also well developped by now. Just copy-paste really. I have all these components in my shed as I speak as I own 2 class 5 landyachts and a stigter landyacht. One of the best features of such a landacht mast is that they are all build up out of 2 or 3 parts. In effect the longest section is only 2 mtr long. with the low weight and the small size it will be truly car toppable.

The traveller system comes of a 70's Stighter landyacht that I have in my shed. Extremely simple and cheap but it does really work well. The pivot daggerboards concept can be stolen of the Laser-1 or Prindle 18-2 or 19 designs. As few slight shape modifications and presto. Also this technology is well understood by now. Rudders can come straight of the F16's or use Dotan as the South African Mosquito's are doing with succes.

The only true challenge design wise is to come up with a proper hull shape. Some designer must be found willing to put his expertise in.

So this basic concept has alot going for it. But in some way critical mass must be achieved, only then will a commercial builder will seriously consider producing these boats. For that you need an enthousiast team of amateurs willing to do the trailblazing and proof the concept by building a few prototypes.

Who is up for that ?

Wouter

I would be nice if we could persuade, induce, seduce, bribe, or blackmail Vanguard into developing and producing a mini-cat like that for the younger kids. That's the company that has the "in" with all the yacht club programs and with US Sailing and ISAF. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />