I'm trying to figure out what's the best layout for all the lines and sheets on the F16.
There is a lot of information hidden in the forum but not really easy accessible, widespread in the threads.
And some say they will change their setup because it doesn't work sufficiently.
The setup i chose will be for two-up racing, and one-up recreational sailing. I put the different layouts in one diagram, but it looks like spaghetti, not real clean.
And the mast rotation is still missing, if i lead it to the shrouds as well it will run parallel to the downhaul.
Does anybody have photos where the complete setup is visible?

Isn't this a topic for the F16 Wiki? Perhaps we can evaluate a consensus what's the best layout.
Holger

The set up you show is pretty standard and probably the most popular, so I would be happy with it. To make things run smooth just make sure your fittings and lines are a good make and correct size. I've never sailed a superwing mast on a Blade but whilst sailing an 'A' cat the correct mast rotation is very important. However, the 'A' Cat main is a very high aspect design and can stall out pretty easy. So I would imagine you'll want to adjust the rotation MORE than the downhaul!! which is the complete opposite to my Stealth's Pear shape mast which I very rarely adjust as it is more forgiving to wind/steering shifts.
Try and incorporate as many bungee take ups as possible to keep loose lines to a minimum as they always get tangled at the wrong time.
Have you thought about a seperate kite tack line and a two to one spi halyard (check out what the good Tornado Crews are doing with their set ups)

This tornado setup looks very clean and tidied up, but it is optimized for two-up sailing, and lines are out of reach for singlehandling.

Holger

It is clean but being optimised for two up isn't such a bad thing when it comes to sail solo because everything is at the front of tramp so you don't tie yourself up in knots when you're tacking and gybing. Notice the mast rotation with the slack tied around the boom. I get the impression they don't bother with it too much. Try and dig out an 'A' Cat photo and see how they have set up their downhaul and rotation. Also try and have a look at how the Capricorn has set up a two to one spi halyard with seperate tack line, it could make for very quick hoists as you can pull the foot of the spi out prior to the windward mark from the trapezze.

Also notice how the downhaul and jib?? sheet go to the shroud. The downhaul goes foward to the mainbeam and the jib sheet goes under the tramp. I asume both are kept in place by bungee cords? Very slick, I like that setup. Seing how I just purchased 100ft of bungee cord, I think I am going to copy it.

I've got my mast rotation lead from the tramp to the shroud and the under the tramp where it's tidied up with bungee. I've made the line continuous to avoid the problem of all the line ending up on one side of the boat. I'll take some photos next time I'm with the boat.

This is absolutely something for the F16 wiki. I don't think there's any need to reach consensus on it: it should be a place to document setups that work (and those that don't...)

Paul

Robi, found in an earlier post of your blade a photo
with a blue line at the rear beam, through a clam-cleat and a roller. What's this for? Seems as it disappears in the hull.

Why is the front trapeze so far back, behind the shrouds?
Isn't it better for much clarity to lead it through the front beam?

Holger

ahhahaha thats a secret weapon i have my dear Watson! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But in all seriousness, its what I have called the Bret Moss kickup system. He engineered it. Its an expensive mod. My boat has (on each hull) a carbon tube that runs from the stern to just forward of the rear beam, just like in the photo. Then it goes to the cheek block and finishes in the clam cleat. This is my rudder pull down system. If I hit something the clam cleat releases the rudder and up she goes.
The advantage of this system is TWO FOLD.
ONE: You do not have to go to leeward to release the rudder.
TWO: you release from windward, and you reset from windward.
Uncleat the line the rudders come up, pull the line and rudders go down. This works good for south FL, because we have tons and tons of sea grass that is always getting caught in the rudders. My rudders and rudder stocks have been modified for this mod. I had to drill holes in the rudders and in the stock in order to accommodate the lines. This line, also helps ease the load on the sterns. When sailing the rudders want to go back, due to water resistance (it may not be much, but still) Once the line is loaded she is actually pulling the rudders forward.

As far as the traps go, NO, the less time I can spend in front of the boat, the better. My boat is setup mostly for single handed sailing. So my trap line is where I am supposed to be. Everything is within a arms length distance.

Robi, it's exciting what someone can discover behind such an inconspicuous detail, did you introduce the Brett Moss system to the F16 crowd before?
My Blade will also have a new rudder system, like this from a F18ht but customized to F16 (see attachment)

When you sail solo do you need both trapeze to the back? In my question i meant the forward trapeze,used normally for the crew, lead through the front beam. Then it also won't tangle with the shroud.
How do you seperate downhaul and mastrotation, are both accessible at the shroud?

Holger

No the rudder system has not been official introduced, because first I was making sure the system works flawlessly (which is does) and its an expensive mod. Plus I am lazy, I forget to take pictures and just get it done.

My mast rotation does not go to the shroud. Mine stays up front (which I am not very happy with) but my downhaul does go to the shroud, so in actuality I only deal with one line at the shroud.

When i saw the first pic of NED666 i noticed that the rotator arm has moved from above the boom to the mastbase, is this part of the evolution? Are all newer blades delivered in that way, and what is the difference in handling?
The sheet can from both positions be routed to the sidestays.
From what i have read is the mastrotation essential to the alu wingmast and not neglectable, thus is has to be easily accessible. In 2-up the arm at the base could be knocked with the knees at manouvres, or is this a minor point?
Holger

Which Blades have you seen with the mast rotator above the boom? As far as I know, having it at the mast base has always been standard, although I know that Hans has his setup with the mast rotation line secured to the boom, rather than through an eye in the tramp. On his boat, the mast rotation cleats are at the foot of the mast, rather than on the deck.

Paul

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8
Holger
You'll find some of Robi's Blade photo's here. I'm sure you'll find nothing wrong with the set up that Paul has described with the cleats fixed to the mast foot.

Sorry that didn't copy and paste as expected. Anyway try Page 9, photo's of Lake Jackson, Sebring.

At the Blade photos i have seen some rotator arms are mounted just below the boom not above,
http://www.formula16.org/component/option,com_gallery2/Itemid,26/lang,de/?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=2948&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
that i must have mixed up with other boats like F18´s or Tornado where its above the boom. But in both ways the arm is fixed to the boom.

On the other hand there are boats where the arm is at the mastbase or slightly higher, like Wouters F16 for example.
A-Cats and some Tornados have it also at the mastbase
Does it make a difference if the rotator arm is independent from the boom, and in which way?
Wouter described something about that somewhere ago, I searched back in the threads but couldn't find it.

Holger

I think, Robi's boat was the prototype (or at least the first US built Blade). All the other Blades that I have seen (US VMI built Blades) have the rotation below the boom. It does not seem to pose a problem during tacks/gybes. The rotation controls run through a grommet on the tramp and out to the main beam to a cam cleat on the hull. It works ok for me, but can be a hassle when in 1-up mode b/c the controls are run forward (this could be easily addressed if I were not so lazy).

When i saw the first pic of NED666 i noticed that the rotator arm has moved from above the boom to the mastbase, is this part of the evolution? Are all newer blades delivered in that way, and what is the difference in handling?



That is true.

Also the mast base rotation arm allow you to run the lines underneath the trampoline making the tramp a little more clean.





I've never experienced such a thing. The circle travelled by the arm seems to be well out of the way of where you place your hands or knees. Afterall it is only 30 cm behind the mast. I did however get knocked on the head by the rotation arm that was fitted just below the boom. As a result I consider the low rotation arm to be the better setup from the viewpoint of bodily harm. Also I rather hurt my hand (if that was indeed in danger) then poke an eye out. On the Taipans I really disliked the rotation arms that were just below the boom. It would also hook on your life vest and such.

Advantages of a low rotator arm setup. It is simpler to produce and it is cheaper, also less holes in the mast. It requires less blocks and less expensive cleats. Also it gets rid of loose hanging control lines that often find their way into you spi ratchets. As a matter of fact a low setup moves the rotation control lines to under the tramp, removing them altogether from the tramp which is already cluttered with other lines.

Drawbacks. Well if you travell out the main then you pretty much have to adjust your mast rotation as well. There is somewhat less need to do so with the "just below the boom" setup. Personally I found I don't travell out on the upwind legs so one setting is always the right one here. The only other leg that you'll encounter will be the downwind leg where you have to readjust the rotation angle for anyway.

The rotation arm I have is indeed really simple to make and any homebuilder can do it. Plain hardware store items got the job done.

personally I think there is little difference between both setups in the way of performance but alot in ease of production and cost. So I decided for the low setup.

I hope this helps.

Wouter

Wouter

Thank you all for responses, things are getting clearer.
Took some photos of Tornados at the Volvo Champions Race last year, learning from the big ones. In the attached photo there is a low rotator arm, with the sheet lead to a cleat to the side of the hull. If the cleat is placed in the region of the shroud it should work well for F16 1-up and 2-up.
In the photo at the end of the rotator arm, there is a red line loop to the front beam. Could this be a kind of rotation limiter to get back to a pre defined position if the cleat on the hull is released? Or used for some extra rotation if pulled in other direction?
Holger

It's a mast lock or rotation inducer, Holger.

If you want more rotation than is happening naturally under sheet tension, or perhaps conditions are lumpy and winds light, you pull on rotation with that line.