I do not have time to read this entire thread right now, so I hope this has not be said but, I have said this before and still believe that what we need to do is find a way to get the parents off their buts and go to the lakes. I do not believe it is the kids that are not interested, it's the parents that do not know sailing is very much alive.

Most of us land locked adults don't even think about going to a lake for any reason. In the back of our minds my wife and I always liked to get out of town, we just never did! Her family use to go camping all the time when she was young. Her dad would wake them up at 4:30 in the morning load them in the car and go. We have been married 19 years and been camping once. Not because we did not want to, we just never thought about it.

I always wanted to get a boat, I just didn't have time, it costs too much. When you live a whole hour from the nearest day lake and 2 or 3 hours from a lake that you can camp at. Lets go Camping. 4 kids 4 responses, 6 year old daughter, "WHEN ARE WE GOING??????????", 15 year old son, "2 days with out my game cube? No TV? NO WAY!!!!" 16 year old daughter can I take a friend? and 17 year old daughter, Hummm, boys???

I found a boat and a fleet and we went camping. The little one can not wait for the season to start again, hooked for live. My son just found out there is a sailboard one of the fleet members is giving away, he does not know he is getting it for his birthday tomorrow but really thought that would be cool. 16 year old daughter, learned to sail my 16 and is helping build one for them to sail. 17 Year old daughter, learned to sail a banshee and has been camping a few times.

Yes a small simple boat would help, but I would probably not buy a $3000 boat for a child. I just can not afford it. A good used 14 or similar maybe.

Again, just a few thoughts, Find a way to get parents out!!! It does not have to cost thousands of dollars. I believe that if kids are by the water and there are boats, they will probably go sailing. Some of them may even enjoy it.

We had a tent and some sleeping bags, no cook ware no water jugs, but, we did have LOTS of BEER Storage vessels. So we took beer soda and food. The fleet has been great and after just one season we are just about self sufficient.

Sam

And that (speed) is exactly why Jet Skis are selling so well. Turn the key, off you go. No knowledge or skill required, and just about zero set up time. Not dependant on what the wind is doing today either.

Yeah, well he had his dad on another boat side by side with him. Still it's an accomplishment, but not what I would consider the accomplishment of a solo crossing.

One of the more enjoyable times I've had was when Art came to town and we vounteered to help the Fast and Fun event happen. Somewhere I have a bunch of pics...

But here's my take on this.

I think there should be a small boat along the lines of what is being discussed. This boat should be:

1) Easily buildable - One major problem with getting kids in cats is that whatever you come up with now will be new. If it costs a certain amount to buy, then it will slow on the take. If that cost climbs, then the family will be less likely to buy it especially if it only fits the kids, not the family. Remember that the Opti and such started out as designs to be built, and a club could put a fleet together on its own with members doing build days. While we as performance sailors usually go for the high-tech, this is a design to exercise some restraint with. Materials should not be hard to obtain, and should be relatively easy to work with.

2) Should perform well - note that I said perform well, it does not have to be the hottest thing on the water. Only hot enough. It should handle well as a requisite - I would opt for boards over asym hull shape to avoid frustration with tacking. Note that for ease of building, a single board in the middle, or lee boards on the inboard side of the hulls may help simplify the build process.

3) A variety of rigs - this may seem at odds with the simple thing, but... The discussion so far has been either-or. You could make a platform that could use an unstayed used windsurfer rig as option 1 for the simplest fun for beginners or knock-about sailing. Maybe even a Sunfish or Laser rig. Move up to the more experienced kids and add the stayed rig with purpose made sail (patterns available to sew yourself or have the local sailmaker do), maybe next step is a trap, and so on. I know that each option changes the loads on the hull, but you can plan for max as far as platform design goes, and rig as appropriate for sailor's level or money available. One boat can therefore serve a couple of steps along the road.

If a manufacturer wants to make them, fine. But they should still be home-buildable, with parity enforced in whatever class rules that may result.

I also agree that getting kids out there in an active lifestyle is the main thing that needs to happen. But access to the boats is a big thing. When I was a kid I had access to water to just goof around in all day. Buying a Sunfish wasn't an option, so I built a knock-off from Glen-L called the Buckboard (still have it). If there was some way I could have built a small cat (given money and skills) at the time I would have been all over that - I remeber drooling over the occasional new Hobie-16 that would show up, but buying one was not an option. So, again, kids need the ability and desire to get out there (and parents need to foster that), but then can't be cut off because a boat costs too much, or appears too complicated. I think time just goofing around on the water is as or is more useful than spending it in regimented racing programs. People need to learn how to simply go sailing for the pure pleasure of it - that's what makes it a lifelong activity.

As for the existing boats - while there are lot of H-14s out there, I think the majority are getting a little old and worn out, as new ones haven't been out there for a long time. I used to think this would be the ultimate boat for this purpose, but honestly something smaller and better handling would be better. I can't get too excited about any of the roto-stuff, and maybe if the Wave didn't look so much like a toy I'd like it better - have sailed them, they're good in that respect, but they just don't capture my imagination, and I wonder if that's a problem with how kids look at them too. A Laser looks like a boat, a Wave looks like a resort toy. Just my opinion.

The kids like to play. I think your making to much of the speed and cool factor. What good is a car top boat that weighs 125lbs do for kids that don't have cars? I would bet that mom can't throw the 125lb boat up on top of a car. If mom isn't involved it probably won't happen. Who do you think is driving the kids to the Opti programs at the clubs during the summer.

The kids in the picture went out for hours that day and took turns jumping off the boat and being rescued by the others. They took turns driving that was teaching them boat handling without knowing it.
4 of the 5 activly race H14's and 16's.
The kid driving (Matt Perkins) sailed this years H16 Nationals at 16 yrs old and did very well.
Sarah(front right) has sailed 3 Nationals with me.

I will admit to thinking the Wave was to clunky and slow when it came out. The eyeball test has shown me otherwise.
The kids go out and have a blast on it.
It's a well thought out boat even if the techies can't admit it.
The fun factor is the most important thing you can promote.

Personally, I understand alot of these posts that say that a new design is not the most important thing, but getting a major youth program going is.

However we must focus on what we CAN do rather then what we should do if some billionair donates a million bucks.

Great idea's about the programs but we are not going to be able to achieve that on the shoe string budget that we have.

So lets not looks at what can't be done, but at what can be done.

At this particular time there simple is NO simple and inexpensive youth boat, PERIOD. Several of us have noted that even lasers go for 4000 Euro's/ 5000 US$. Opti's are ludicrously expensive for what you get as well.

The idea with this F12 is two fold. First to really get a fast, good looking BOAT outthere that really does give young people alot of bang for the buck. If that design happens to be a CATAMARAN like the F12 then I'm really not complianing.

It is my own intention to have the F12 setup as such that as good as everything can be homebuild by a very average father or mother, with maybe the possible exception of the hulls. Not that many WILL homebuild it but because repairing such a craft will be very easy as well. This all translates in low cost and no worrying about your kid damaging the boat too much (in way of cost).

Additionally if we ever want to launch a REAL youth program then we need a basic sailing design that really is inexpensive, easy to repair and really simple to maintain. Sure having 10 boats doing a tour along High-schools in USA will be great but then somebody needs to pay for 10 boats and the related repairs. Current doing that with lasers will cost 50.000 bucks only in purchase of boats. I intend to cut that in halve with the F12's.

If a design is really inexpensive then it becomes alot easier to persuade people to buy it. Currently we don't really have that in youth boat land and certainly not in catamaran land since the M4.3 was discontinued. The Wave being a fun boat but really not to boat to WOW kids and teenagers with. Besides these are only sold in the USA.

So my basic point is yes you are correct that a culture change is probably required but how do we affect that ? Not with F16's, F18's or A-cats. Also not with the Wave or Bravo. So this F12 project is an project to give ourselfs a tool with which we can attempt such a culture chance with some chance of succes. In that way the F12 is needed. Especially because it is NOT a One-Design boat = expensive outdated trash. You'll be amazed how well a concept can be develloped when a few respected amateurs start working on it.

If ever we are going to attemp a major youth program then in the USA we'll have to attract some major sponsor, probably a soda brand or something. For that you'll some flashy boat, some new and "Happening" thing that looks the part. Optis and lasers ain't it nor the Wave, I'm trully sorry. Again the F12 project aims at merging this fashion sense with a well performing but inexpensive (=simple) sailboat. A difficult balancing act I know, but without it I really don't see anybody selling the youth concept to a major sponsor.

But the main topic for now is to get some F12 designing going and only AFTERWARDS decide whether it is worth persuing further and not before anything is known or understood about it.

Wouter

Agreed! Parents are very able to guide a childs general interests by what they talk about and promote. Not to the n'th detail, but in general, they're able to shape the childs views into adult-hood.

We went camping as kids because that's what my parents talked about and did with us. Not because us kids pushed them to go. Of course, when I was 16 I started to grumble about the week we went camping, but it was still a good time once we got there.

I still enjoy camping today, but not because it was my idea when I was a kid. I enjoy water skiing because my dad made it a point to pull me behind the boat. We were very into outside activities and guess what I was doing with my kids as soon as they could walk... get them outside with any sort of sport that keeps their interest.

The parents have to buy into the sport and push the kids to go to the clubs or get them on the lake for the day. You can't promote sailing in school and expect a large increase in club numbers. It needs to be pushed to the parents.

A ready to sail weight of 125 lbs doesn't mean that the thing being lifted to the car top is 125 lbs as well. Almost halve that weight is taken up in the mast sail rudders. If the hulls and beams can be easily disassembled we may even be looking at the heaviest single component weighting only 40 lbs.

We must really learn to think in what CAN be done and not trying to find more things that CAN'T be done.

With respect to kids only playing. I've seen large fleets of extremely dedicated youngsters trying to coach as much speed from their boat as possible. I know the sailing culture were I live is different from the USA, but here we tend to have camps with fleets of easily 15 boats doing competitive sailing for days and there a 10's of such camps in the country. A serious event for young people attacts easily very large fleets.

Wouter

Valid point. You do need something to show if you want any sort of big corporate sponsor (corporations are into changing the world just to make it better). And you need a sponsor if you expect to be able to throw any real money at any sort of culture changing advertising. The way to get the word out about a great thing is not cheap, and spam just doesn't work that well <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

A good product doesn't sell itself, it takes a well thought out marketing campaign to create a perception of the product and make it a success.

I can see it now:
Honey can you take apart the boat and put it on top of your $25,000 SUV or soccer mom van and take it down to the lake and reassemble it for the kids to sail and then reverse the process and bring it home.

The under 40, unmarried, no children divide becomes very clear here.

I'm willing to bet that there isn't anyone out there that has done more regattas with a kid as a crew than me over the last 15 years.
So, I'm not being negative, just realastic.
Most of what I have posted is from observation and what I call the eyeball test and not opinion.

If you want to build a new boat, great.
Just make sure it's ready for the summer and not sitting in the yard. Just take the kids sailing and have fun with them.

Allright lets get back to designing and testing. The other group can work on their youth and parent programs and finding sponsors to finance it.





Alright, for a long time now I really wanted to use metal glues in beachcats. Actually I have tried several glued setups on my own cats, both Prindle 16 and F16. Till now the results are promising.

I also really want to make the F12 platform as much like a normal A-cat platform in appearence as possible.

I really see alot of advantages of the unstayed class 5 rig mainly because the whole setup can be homebuild in a day including having mom sew the mainsail while Dad and kid build up the mast and boom from standardised alu tubes that we bought at the hardware store.

I want to use the same pod to hold the unstayed mast as used on the "Standard" Landyacht (standard is a name) as shown in the picture earlier.

On landyachts this pod is simple welded to the tubing or the other way around. I know it looks fragile but I have yet to see one of those break.

Having said this the pod needs to be made of stainless steel as you can't weld corrosive resistant aluminium very well. However stainless steel is too heavy and too expensive to use for the mainbeam itself. So ideal would be to attach a steel pod to the aluminium mainbeam. Sadly these two materials react to eachother and accellerate corrosion. That is unless they two materials are seperated by an layer of non-conductive material. And a layer of metal glue is just that kind of thing.

The glue that I have used in the past holds up well to salt water and was available in my local hardware store. It was discussed recently in some other thread on this forum. This glue is quoted to hold 160 kg per sq. centimeter. in shear stresses. It will undoubtable be weaker under tensile stresses.

But if we use round 80x2 mm alu tubing for the mainbeam (common as mud) and we weld a 60 mm stainless steel pod to a peice of stainless steel that was first bend halveway around the mainbeam then we can glue those two parts together and avoid tensile stresses in the layer of glue. For the later thing to happen we need round beams, but that is alright as we round alu beams because they are easy to get and cheap.

If run the numbers and a 60 x 60 mm stainless steel base plate should be able to handle the torsional forces. But we need to find out how far we can push it. We can always make the base plate larger and solve our problems that way, but stainless is expensive and the less we have to bend it around the beam the better.

This setup for the mast is simple and effective but it does put alot of torsion on the beamlanding as all the mainsheet tension will be transformed into torsion that must be withstood by the beam being secured to the hulls. The rearbeams are just the same as on catamarans, this included stresses, so we can just copy that of say F16's or F18's. But the F12 mainbeam is significantly different then those of the normal cats.

I would really like to have the mainbeam detachable so the boat can be broken down in hulls and beams and be transported that way. Will make putting the boat on the car top (part by part) alot easier. We can of course glue the mainbeam into place, as we have done with the mast pod but then we will never be able to disassemble it.

It is hard to simulate these parts by mathematics are most assumptions used in these models don't apply anymore. So just building it and test it is far more attractive.

It is this I want to test in simple test setups.

But I also would love to test glueing the alu beam to say a block of tropical wood and have that laminated into the hull (or a jig if it is a test setup) and see if it will hold. Afterall glueing the beams in will be really attractive from a cost and homebuild point of view. We just need to learn whether such a block can be laminated well into the hull itself. The math suggests that it can be done that way. But again math has problems with respect to local stress concentrations as the hulls are not simply a uniform material like metal. If it all where metal then I would know from the simulation but the hulls really aren't.

I think all the other items have been solved. At least I think so.

Can you help me in this respect Flatlander 18 ? See also my private reply.

Wouter

Echo what Wouter said. Maybe it's time for a new post.

F12 Design and Development

I'd love to see the developement of a new boat to fascilitate the intro of cat sailing to our youth. However I can tell you that Pat and 204 are masters of this already. For me, I always wanted to share my love of sailing with my nieces and nephews. The right opportunities have not been there, and I haven't made the effort needed to create them. When my fleet hosted the H16 Nationals last September, I had the chance to meet Pat, and a surprising number of families from 204. This fleet has succeded where many have not. It may be due to chance factors, like there being a good number of similarly aged kids, but the results speak for themselves, ie... Steeplechase results. I love this thread, and would like to go on, but don't have time. Design and build the boat! But follow 204's formula for generating interest! I'm very proud of 448, but we don't compare to our Northwestern cousins. My hat is off to Pat and his fleet. I don't know them well, but I am thrilled by what I observed of 204's sailors.

Thanks Brian
I would say that the closest thing I see to what we have been lucky enough to accomplish (yes,lots of luck) is what the people and Fleets of division 7 are doing.
John is a part of that and the enthusiasm from people like Chris Wessels and Todd Wilson who put on the 14 Nationals is what got me to drive to Iowa to sail. I'm too big for the 16 so the 14 is pretty funny for me to be on.(kinda like Chris Farley " Fat guy on a little boat") Hope to play with the big kids some day and have an F18.
The 14's had 35 boats and was the largest single hand Nationals per Mark's tally sheet.
The boats and people are out there.
It's a big time and money commitment to grow sailing.

Not sure what you mean by "pod" but in the Fed-5 landsailor in your first picture, the mast sets in a cup at the bottom and a ring about a foot or two above the cup.

How about bolt a cup to the bottom of the dolphin striker and the ring to the main beam?

A landsailer doesn't go downwind (at least relative to apparent wind) - that sort of rig might need some modification for a waterborne boat.

Hey guys, this is not a ... or ... decision. You do your things and the other do theirs. As far as I can see both approaches are complementary.

And no matter what you guys say, this F12 looks a whole lot more practical then the H16's and H14's.


Wouter

I had to give it a name and English is not my native language. Correct me it there is a better word for it.

For the remainer, there are several different ways in which the mast is supported on these class 5 cars. I have two class 5 cars and both use a setup very similar to the "Standard"




How is the dolphinstriker in turn supported ? In short, this doesn't solve much. Additionally the F12 can easily go without a dolphin striker strap as the mast loads on a unstayed rig are much lower. Not having a D-strap both lighter and cheaper.




It may, although I have sailed straight downwind with it on occasion and it does handle those loads without a fuss. Some kind of kicking strap will be needed to keep the sail into shape though on pure downwinds, this is something I find on my landyachts as well. Often a simple line will do the trick quite well (no blocks or cleats)

Thanks for the tips.

Wouter

May be merit to in front of the beam and below, but does an unstayed rig on a seemingly massive beam need a dolphin striker? Thinking more about a striker like post that extends below the main beam may provide the necessary support for a cup/pod/mast base.

Not doubting you Wouter but do you really think this adhesive will work? Or is it, let's prove it won't work? It certainly seems very simplistic.

What is the different between having the whole cup above the beam or halve halve on top and halve below it ? I only see the later setup as making the mainbeam weaker as you will be taken away material to let the mast pass through the beam.





It does doesn't it ? But there are three reasons why I think it is something we should try.

-1- The most sought after aircraft used on dirtstrips in Africa is the F-27 transport plane. It is a design from the late 40's early 50's and because it was designed and made in a country devastated by the WW2 they could not use rivets. Didn't have the machines for it. So they tried metal glue to glue the whole plane together. These planes (average age = 45 years) are still going strong despite being used for decades on rough dirt strips for decades. That is after they were sold off by western airlines completing their commercial life there. Alot of metal glue development came from these airplanes. Before carbon application most race cars where made of glued together alu components.

-2- experiences with my own beams. I glued several repairs and they held up. My mast rotation arm is made from glued together alu components as well, that was after the bolts and rivet original design failed (broke)

-3- I used too much (plain) sealant on my F16 beams. This year I had to take my boat apart and it was a huge task to get the beams to seperated from the hulls. We eventually just spooned as much sealant out as we could before seperating the parts. At one corner we failed, hull was making large cracking noices and just left that beam in place. This was not even a real glue but just plain sealant. That got me thinking. Why would it be so hard to seperate those beams. The only reason was that was so much surface area that even a rather small amount of sticking per square "whatever" would be multiplied into very large holding forces. This is the same trick that flies jump jets. The underpressure per square inchs is less then a baby sucking but becuase their is so many square inches in total on the wing it can carry many tons of weight. Glue works in the same way. Actually soldering works in the same way as well. You don't need high strength per se just sufficient surface area.


So now I'm at the point where I'm convinced that we should proof that this setup doesn't work. We may all be very surprised. Having said this some extra care need to be given to the shapes of the objects as glue normally doesn't withstand tensile stresses very well. So you don't want flat surfaces but rather curved surfaces as here nearly all the loads will be taken up by shear stresses in some part of the glue layer instead of tensile stresses. Round objects seem very attractive here.

Plus we must also not forget that the F12 is a small craft with mostly very modest loads. If glue works then this boat is a prime candidate.

Lets face it, if it works then this is a major breakthrough for the F12 design. Production will then become exceptionally easy and lightweight.




I really do think that it will work.

Afterall glue is currently holding the A-cat beams to many the A-cat hulls at this time as well. So the principle is not in doubt, the question is whether it will also work in our application. But even then we can make the components bigger (more surface area for the glue) till the setup does hold.

read thsi info sheet for more info : Araldite glue info sheet

Wouter

I'll make a trip by Airparts on the way home tonight,


They can cut me a piece of S/S. What thickness? They will be able to bend or recommend the shop to bend a radius matching up to 180 degrees of the 80mm main beam.


And then a X mm length of X mm diameter S/S tubing (with X mm wall) welded to the center of the 60x60 base?