Funny how a theme on the ancients great art/skill of finding new lands in the pacific turn into a discussion on who is the least evil.
Reading history I have not found one example of peaceful and 'succesful' colonialization. No doubt church dogma and western religion played a big part in how the west conquered lands and people all over the planet back then. We still carry some of the dogmas accepted and used back in the 14. century with us today, as pointed to by Warbird. Racism is still alive, and as ugly as ever. We in the western world should all be very grateful that the renaissance came to us trough some great men (men, as in both men and women), if not we would still judge each other by the bible. Not much has changed since then, but education do tend to help.

I have got to give one to the hometeam. Norse explorers relied on the sun and stars to navigate across oceans, but they also had "travel stones", probably magnets. When they came to Newfoundland they named the natives "skræling" which in modern norwegian language means a sickly and thin person.. Racism as it's best as the settlements on Newfoundland was bested by the natives and an incredibly long line of supply.
Trivia: Newfoundland translates well to "new found land" in norwegian.

If you look at wikipedias short piece on history of navigation, the western bias is clearly there (but there are some pieces on polynesian and micronesian navigation in other sections): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_navigation


Hope the racism and navigational issues are solved til the Global Challenge at Zandvoort <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think that is a fair obsrvation as the colonialsm that Wouter was talking about sits uncomfortably on people who are generally liberal and generous.
I paint about our history and politics often and I think we have some of the most exciting characters to be read about.
We should embrace our history more and learn to love our forfathers warts and all.
It is difficult for the Maori mindset to do this also as they have a strong tradition of Utu which is to balance slights felt done even many generations after the original wound.

As an asside, I never mentioned evil, as I am with Shakespear on this "nothing is either good nor bad as it is thinking makes it so." I think that Europe carries with it an un gly history of elitism. When people talk about the savagery of Maoris I always point to the Spanish Inquisition, The English habit of hanging, drawing and quartering and head put on a pike. I would much rather have my head cleaved open and die instantly and be eaten.

I am ranting because it is winter and we have been having the worst storm in 150 years.

I will post photos soon of my freinds 75 foot wave peircing, solid wing cat which was punnished for being so tall. You will find that much more interesting.

That may have nothing to do with whether it was taught or not :-)

Actually my recollection (70's) is that NZ history (pre-20th century) was mostly taught prior to high school and reasonably intensively. Unfortunately I don't remember much if any 20th century NZ history being taught in the compulsory curriculum (which also doesn't mean it wasn't taught :-)) - I have had to read about this as an adult.

I just recently heard that a church made a precise move and elected to pay $660,000,000.00 USD to compensate victims of their recent practices in order to avoid being brought before the United States courts to face charges of child abuse.

Is this the same bunch that believes God only listens to them?

Wait. . .there are a lot of those! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

This would be the Catholic church. and they did not make the payment to avoid being taken to court. They made the victims wait until the CEO was going to have to testify and THEN they paid out.
What that church does not understand is that that is the first wave. After the sexual abuse there will be class actions for spiritual abuse as they have stolen the ability for people to investigate and decide on their own spirituality by telling them that those such as buddists are evil and the devils children.

And yes, all Christian think they will go to heaven and the rest of us will go to the devil.....and burn for ever....

I'm pretty sure that would require the existence of legislation against "spiritual abuse" (however you choose to define that), and therefore require the state to determine what are, and are not, acceptable religious beliefs. The thought makes me shudder.

Anyhow, I think most people are here to talk about sailing...

Sailing is a religious experience. Of course, we do have the multihull types who will go straight to heaven and those leaner heretics.

We are sailors true but sometimes we are aloud to think outside that square. If I am outa line just tell me and I'll flag it. Some people have shown an interest in it. It would not require defining what are acceptable spiritual beliefs but how those beliefs are taught and reinforced. Everyone should be aloud to believe what they like for sure. The Catholic church stole that from me as I was too terrified to think of investigating any other form of spiritual way of being. When I was five through ten I was being told every day that there were demons everywhere waiting for me on the way home and even in my home and that I had to keep a constant conversation with god to stay safe.

If I went and told your five year old every day that demons were everywhere and that your child would burn in hell if the demons got to him or her you would rightly come to my house and whack me....hard. Why can churches prey so clinically on children and leave such terrible visions on their young mind? There is a huge social cost with thousands of people with PTS.

I am not only talking bout Christianity. We can see the results other religions have created with mad dogma and the way they are delivered it.

I see it like this.
There are only two levels of evil.
1. Evil
2. Not Evil
All of mankind falls in catagory 1. All of everything else falls in catagory 2.


Have a nice day <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Miguel

I read an interesting book about 20 years ago, The Songs Of Satawal(?). I think the navigator was blind. The knowledge was passed on in song. One part that I remember, was the old guy saying he could tell the type/direction of the waves, by the way his balls felt!

surely you speak of his golf balls and not his tennis balls!

If felt was involved they were probably billiard balls.

I never felt anything.

"For swells to remain perceptible after travelling hundreds of miles, they must have their origin in regions of strong and persistent winds, the more important swells originating in "permanent" weather systems such as the Trades. . . The other main source is the Southern Ocean belt. . .

Holding course by swells seems always to be a matter more of feel than sight. . . Puluwatans too 'steer by the feel of the waves under the canoe, not visually'. One might perhaps be tempted to refer to keeping course by the swells as 'steering by the seat of one's pants', if it were not for the more anatomically specific detail supplied by the veteran island skipper Captain Ward, who writes, 'I have heard from several sources, the the most sensitive balance was a man's testicles, and that when at night or when the horizon was obscured, or inside the cabin this was the method used to find the focus of the swells off an island' . . .

Examples of the practice of orientatin by swells can be collected from virtually any part of the Pacific." [i][/i] We, the Navigators, pp.84-86.

Clearly, we would all be better to sail "commando"!