OK, I've been reassured that even if I get a boat with a less than great mast/ mainsail match, a new sail can be built to match whatever mast I get. So....
One of the boats I'm considering is a '96 Bimare, carbon beams and mast. I've heard some questions about that vintage's durability. I do recognize that most any boat in my budget is 10 years old (or more), and is gonna be far from new. But was this boat particulary cheap/weak/problem prone? I don't expect a super rigid platform, but I don't want to spend a lot fo time putting it back together(aside from paying for my mistakes).
Another local boat on the market is an '87 Boyer MK II with a carbon mast(from somewhere). Alum beams, curved traveller, kevlar hulls, probably 190 lbs. A little rougher looking. Older generation blades I'd assume. A 20 year old boat, but maybe sounder hulls?.
Care to offer any opinions on the reputations of these boats? Again, not racing, just looking for the rush I think these boat offer, hoping to do it cheap.
Any other boats out there in the $3 to $4K range for sale? I'm in Spokane, WA (and Cd'A, ID and Flathead Lake, MT).

Thanks!

Dave

When I first started hearing about A-Class boats, I heard Bimare's were "throwaway" boats. Now that I have seen them and sailed against them, I would say they are about the same as any other fiberglass A. They have a limited life because of the material but there is nothing wrong with them.

Lightweight hand layup, vacuum bagged fiberglass breaks down when it flexes. It gets softer. Check the hulls for stiffness. Try to sail the boat in 10-15 kts. If the hulls are obviously flexing, walk away.

The A-Class boats you hear about today are prepreg autoclaved carbon. They are much stiffer, tougher and have a longer life. The new carbon Bimare's are as good as anything I have seen.

I bought a used Boyer Mk 4 last summer. The boat was built in late 2000. It has the original Applied Composites mast and a 2005 Ullman sail. My experience with a used Boyer has been great... but '87 seems pretty old.

i think it really depends how thes boats have been sailed. a 96 bim can be sailed hard and often by a heavy guy and the mk2 seldom hit the water or the other way round...

at that age (+5 years) it really depends on the usage.
I also heard rumors that old bims are easily broken...
the bim mast is surely sensitive to that...

but no clew about the mk2 either. a mk4 is probably a more durable boat than a bim2000 and boyer always had builded good quality boats, but in 20 years so much missuse could have happened...

we sail probably similar old taipans 4.9 over here and they are all in a very good condition. this says something about the quality boyer produced.

try to visit both boats and check carefully all details.
if you are familiar with fibre repair work, the bim might be favourable. you can glue the carbon beams to the platform and even strengthen that part. with alu beams your options are more limited. but still assume the hulls and appendages of the mk2 to be better than the bim. bim rudders and daggerboards like to break easily when older due to the chosen construction principle.

take a good look at the daggerboards and rudders and all other things and than compare and decide.

Thanks you guys, that's the kind of info I was looking for. I'll let you know how it shakes out. Dirk(or anyone else), can you compare sailing the A with the F16 solo?

Dave

A is lighter, longer hulls, optimized light carbon spar which works very well with the sail. much more fun to sail upwind than sailing singlehanded a F16 with a too stiff mast which was designed for two. Thats the plus of the F16 so: as long as the total crew is pretty light, its fully suitable to be sailed with two grown ups.

for racing A has bigger fleet and more events.

another plus for the F16 is the spi. A can be boring downwind in light wind. You can add it (non-class legal, see my pic) but the F16 has it as a standard and it definitely increases the sailing fun a lot.

you need a little more weight to righten a F16 than most A.

guess the mk2 comes pretty close to a taipan 4.9, although the carbonspars of the A are way better than the aluminium spars of the taipan.

[this is a personal & subjective review]

Again I wish to underline that a A-cat type mast and sail can be had on a F16 making it much closer in feel to the A-cats then it can with the standard alu superwing mast. Even with this class legal upgrade the F16 should not be more expensive (fully fitted spi and everything) then the A.

Prime example is the Stealth F16 that has a carbon mast standard and is still the cheapest F16 around.

Up till now however, Nearly all of the F16 sailors that were given the choice between a carbon and alu mast have chosen the lower price of an F16 with alu mast over the one with a carbon mast upgrade. As good as all did test sail the F16's before hand and so they evaluated the gains to be insufficient against the costs. Whether this is right or wrong is beside the point, the real point here being that they didn't feel that THEY needed the carbon mast upgrade enough to justify spending the extra money.

Which is a pitty to some extend in my opinion as I'm sure that fitting a new F16 design (not the Taipan design) with a carbon rig based on the development done in the A-cat class will close the gap between these two designs to a very large extend.

Wouter

As the owner of 2 Class 1: 165 pound BIMs, a fiberglass 2000 and a carbon 2005 XJ I feel qualified here--
I have seen an older Bim in Gulfport like the '97- Al beams and mast and was a Class 2= 200 pounds. This boat had been abused but is still useable.
My 2000 Bim has had a LOT of use year-round locally here in Florida, ocean and lake sailing. No beam or hull failures on their own, one troublesome leak was a crack in the thin fiberglass lining of the daggerboard well (from being punched by the aft corner of the board): It was hard to find, but not hard to fix. This stock boat sailed very well-especially fast to weather. Do NOT pitchpole A-cats going dead downwind (like a Hobie 14) in heavy air and waves= mast breakage: keep air at 90 degrees, sheeted out some to spill air. Or just capsize and wait if caught out in a thunderstorm. If its too much air and you need to get home-they go fast under bare pole with the sail rolled and tied on the tramp. They also go fast capsized after you are separated: Never put down the mainsheet in air. These boats are very manageable, tack instantly, handle like a Formula race car, and they climb to weather like an angel. (Sorry for the commercial)
From another thread today- Yes you are overpowered in more than 22 Knots (with big waves), up until that point the A-cats really can be depowered and managed well- to keep the speed up. And- Hey- I've attended Hobie 20 Nationals where everybody who elected to go out was doing cartwheels at "22 knots" (Pensacola 2001).

Dear Wouter, please try to be more specific. You mix certain things here. Cost have never been a real concern in the A-class. In Europe you have to pay at least 16.000 € for a state of the art A-cat. It seems the prices go up 1.000 € each year! Its not long ago that people were still racing Bim2000 bought for 9.000 € on a competitive level. Not any longer. In contrast costs have been a major concern in the development of the F16 class. So why always trying to compare two different kind of shoes and telling people they are similar when they are not?

Regarding your comment, who bought a F16 optimized for singlehanded sailing so far? As I remember correctly you even have a minimum weight requirement in the class rules for the mast? I think you could build an A-cat similar F16-uni with a 8kg light carbon mast and a hullweight of 10-11 kg and a total weight of around 60-65 kg. Reduce sail+mast to 13 sqm and yes, such a boat could feel quite similar to an A upwind... as long as the water is flat.

But that was never the goal of the F16 class and so the F16 are doing quite well with a boat which can be sailed either singlehanded or with two by using the same mast and even the same mainsail in most cases. But I really don't know how this brings you anywhere close to a current A-class design nor do I see the necessity for it. As I said earlier, please seriously sail a modern A-cat BEFORE commenting on them.

Gotta agree with Dirk here. I have just bought an A and compared to a Taipan (and also the Blade which I have sailed quite a few times), they are not really comparable upwind. The Taipan (F16) is a quick boat, but it doesn't have the feel or responsiveness to the A. It is all down to weight and the rig refinements. Plus I love how smooth the A cuts through the waves.

The As, despite the cost, are still popular. 86 at the last worlds in Sweden. 56 at the North Americans just last week. And I know that Gel-Tek are at full capacity down in Bendigo making 1 a week at least. Can't see the F16 class quite at that level yet, but do admit interest is growing in this formula.

I think the only optmised F16 for single-handed has been Altered. But that was an A-Cat originally. Been on the mkt for a while and not sold yet, so perhaps people are leaning towards the versatility of platform that can both 1 and 2, and if they want to sail solo by themselves go to the A for the competition.

Mast weight min was brought so the Taipan alu mast was still a viable alternative, for cost and performance.

Cheers

Guys,

I only said that I thought that the F16 with a optimized carbon mast and a fitting Landenberger or Glaser sail would feel alot closer to the modern A's then the Taipans (or other F16's) with the alu superwing mast. And having such an optimist rig is allowed under the F16 rules and getting will put your boat at under 16.000 Euro's (= modern A-cat in Europe). That is all.





Also a couple of Stealth F16's have been optimized (both in mast and sail) to singlehanded sailing. But this is beside the point. Even I myself said in my initial posting that most buyers of F16's tend to decide against the optimized package and go for the cheaper standard package. Often because they have a clear want to sail regulary doublehanded.


Now I wasn't dissing the A-cats or any other boat. I just wanted to underscore that "more" then the standard package could be had with the F16's without spending more money then on a modern A-cat. And lets not forget that I included the price for the jib and spinnaker setups in this price. If a solo sailor would accept not having these then the F16 would be significantly cheaper. But I don't know why a sailor would do that, just getting the A will be more smart in this setup.


A few quick points :



My point exactly.




Concern or focus ? I don't see any signs of "cost concerns" in the F16 to be honest.





I'm not. I just wanted to say that the current upwind feel of the alu masted F16's (already pretty good) is not a necessity but a choice if you get the standard package over a more optimist package.





No minimum mast weight, only a tip weight that more or less makes carbon masts weighting less then something like 12-13 kg overall useless as you'll have to put lead in the tops.





Well, not too many modern A-cats around me actually and I'm not sure whether the owners will lend me one of those for sailing on the North Sea.

But I don't have to be in plane crash to know what I can expect when I will be in one. But I'm happy to let it go till the Dutch F16 importer has put an optimized carbon rig on the Blade however. Then we can continue this talk.

Regards,

Wouter

I think mine may be the first F16 that has been specifically fitted out for single handing as a new build. I've the first true Single handed sail that John/Landy have done for the F16; Mast is also tuned to my "lard factor", and my boat is set up to make sailing it single handed the norm.

"Altered" is also a Single handed (only) F16; a converted A class.

I also believe that the latest Stealth (no 555) has the same sail as mine.

Two and halve years ago, 2 stealths were delivered with more flexible masts, reason given by the builder John Pierce was that they were going to owner who most sailed alone.

Wouter

Wouter, I now discover the significant difference in our viewpoint about sailing. When I talk about sailing, I have the art of sailing in mind, trying to achieve the optimum in speed by proper handling a fine tuned machine to its utmost potential. When your target it crashing, well that's an entirely different point of view! ;-) Than I have to agree that there is probably not so much difference in crashing an A-cat and a F16 (as long as the last one is not a fighter jet) but anyhow lack the experience to talk about this. ;-) Regarding my experience I wouldn't even dare to talk about an A-cat design I haven't sailed myself as even nowadays designs still differ a lot in how they behave on the water. You want to see that from aside? Impressive.

As far as I understand, Altered is a 60 cm shortened A-cat (lenght reduced by 11%) whose weight was increased by around 30 kg (gain of 33%) and also the mast was made heavier to fulfill the class rules... I cannot imagine that these modifications led to a better performing boat than the original A ever has been...

Regarding the two Stealths, it just shows taht actually you NEED a softer mast for singlehanded sailing and a stiffer one for 2up... as the Taipan 4.9 class started with long time ago. If the F16 calss will grow to an extent like the F18 or A class fleets are up to already, than you will probably see people owning two spars more suitable for the different configurations and conditions. Right now 2 stealth carbon soft spar F16 you can't really call a fleet if you compares it with the several hundred A cats worldwide. Saarberg since years builds A-cat spars in at least 3 different configurations 'soft-medium-hard' suiting sailors different weights between 65 kg up to 90 kg.

Well Dirk,

You are attributing things to me that I didn't say so I'm not going to react to that. This in turn doesn't mean I disagree with all of them though.

But I only wanted to say in my initial posting that the F16 class allows a more optimized carbon rig to be ordered with the boat and that that will close the gap to the upwind feel of the A-cat even more. Up till now most F16's haven't done that yet. (not even you Dirk). Also when adding the costs of this uprade to the base price of an F16, it will still be the same as the new price of a modern A-cat or cheaper despite being fully fitted with a spinnaker and jib.

Plus I'm hard pressed to find any other boat that comes closer to the feel of an A-cat then the F16's, this in turn is logical as the two share so many specs. They are indeed not entirely the same and I never said that they were.

That was the whole point of my initial posting.

All these are verifiable facts, I'm sorry.





With regard to absolute feel of sailing, have you ever done landyachting ?

What I'm trying to say here is that not even the A-cat are the best ride in sailing from my "limited" experience. Even my 15 year old homebuild class 5 landyacht feels like the next generation jet fighter compared to my 4 year old F16, which in turn is one of the better boats in the whole catamaran scene. The landyacht tacks in 2 to 3 seconds, gybes faster still, accellerates (even upwind) to its max speed (= faster then the wind) within seconds and surprisingly enough it climbs to windward at 45 degrees angle when sailing at 1.5 to 2 times the windspeed. And it does 2 times or more the windspeed downwind at a 170 degree angle. And those are some serious VMG's we are talking about here. The craft weights 50 kg's and has a typical top speed of about 95 km/h (records do go higher however). It is cartopped and rigged for sailing under 5 minutes and a new one costs 5000 Euro's. Call me when the A-cat (or even F16) achieves all of that in a single package.

My point; there is always one step better to be had. So the only true way to compare things is to state what you want in a particular and then very coldly judge the boats in question and then finally accept the few downsides that ALWAYS will be there (even with an A-cat). Because no single craft is perfect. (downside of class 5 landyacht, you need a wide, firm and flat space to ride it an not many sites are available)

Wouter

Well then, maybe you have forgotten about the 18HT <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

You mean to tell us that the 135 kg 18HT WHEN SINGLEHANDED with the standard 20 sq. mtr. by 10.5 mtr rig (for exclusive 2-up sailing) will feel more like a SINGLEHANDED A-cat (75 kg/13.8 sq.mtr/9.15 mtr) then a SINGLEHANDED F16 (104 kg/15 sq. mtr/8.5 mtr) ?

Wouter

Yes Andi is right in this a 18HT is feeling up wind more or less as an a-cat when there is not to much wind, and personal the Marstrom M20 without jib is the closest to A-cat sailing upwind because Goran enlarged his A-cat design to the M20 design. When you see these two boats along eachother you 2 exact versions the one is only a bit bigger.
But what i do not understand in this whole discussion is that there are boats compared with eachother which are not the same kind of designs.
When you have a a-cat with an alu mast and one with a carbon mast than you can say 1 is quicker or more easy to sail than the other. This is the same within the F16, when you are sailing a race with other F16's in a mixed field you are only looking which F16 is the fastest and try to beat this boat and when this is not happening the boat is faster or the skipper/crew are better and you have to find out to go faster the next time, and when a A-cat or F18 is quicker than you than this is not important because it is a different boat.
So compare the same boats with eachother is in my point of view better to discuss

of course it's not A-Cat, but it's feels similar when sailed with TWO up ;-)
Sailing the HT alone in more than 2-3 Bft feel's overpowerd!

Helge Sach (F18 Champ) has joined us in one of our races and he said that our boats are lively and very similar to sail like A-Cat.

But what ever ...

If I would sail at your place or at the lago di como/garda the F16 would be the right boat for me.

Having just come back from the a-class mid-winters having sailed a borrowed boat. It was a Bim Javelin 2002. It was a fast, competitive boat probably capable of a top 15 finish had I been up to that. Too bad that I had not seen your post because I sold it for the money that you are looking to spend at the end of the regatta. Buy a mid-range competitive A and get to know the boat and the class. After a year upgrade it to something more competitive. Try looking on the A-Class site usaca.info and there is a for sale link as well as links to the other A-Class sites. Good Luck and Fair Winds.