Wouter? Haven't you said that it measures in, in every way except for a very minor discrepancy in the jib size, like a couple of inches (or was it centimeters) too big?

Okay, here is a portion of a long conversation with Wouter a year ago:

Regarding the SL 16, I asked, "But does it fit within the F16 class, and would it conceivably be competitive within that class?"

Wouter said: "I would say that it does. We had to make a gamble a year ago when the F16 class adjusted her class rules in the way of sail area. We decide upon 3.7 sq.mtr. jibs Hoping that this would allow the SL16 as well, the SL 16 specs were tentative then. Turns out that the SL16 now has a jib size of 3.75 sq. mtr. 5/100 of a sq. mtr. to much according to F16 class rules. However, my experience is that sailmakers typcially undercut their sails by 0.05-0.10 sq. mtr. just to have them measure in for certain and to maintain complient after years of use. So I really don't expect any new SL16 jibs to be non-F16 complient. Maybe after a year of hard sailing the sails will stretch a little but they will be blown out as well. Nobody will protest them or demand a remeasuring, after they were measured to be compliant when they were new. I don't see the point in doing so either. It is a pretty small non-complience. Apart from that it is full complient in every respect.

Wouter continued: "Will it be competitive in the F16 class? They'll be at a noticeably disadvantage BUT I expect a good youth SL16 team to be in the upper 25 % portion of the fleet just the same. We are talking about 8 point speed difference under texel here, That is is less then 5 min per our racing. In my experience the top 3 to top 5 of any race with a sizeable fleet (15 to 50 boats) covers about 3 to 5 min from the winning time.
"Of course best is that the youths are racing other SL16's and other youths but this is not likely to happen in a meaningful size racing fleet. I think that having these teens in the F16 class will push them a lot harder and make them learn vital tactics and sailing skill much better then when match racing the other national team. Lets face it, these kids need to learn how to start in a fleet, how to round crowded bouys and how to cover a fleet (and not just 1 other boat) . And the expected performance of the Sl16 is such that they will do well in a F16 scoring if they do well sailing the SL16. They gap is not so large that they can't do well in the scoring."

End of Wouter quote.

And I think that is what I have been trying to say as far as including the youth boats in the F16 racing fleets. I concur completely with Wouter on this.

Mike: According to the F16 rules and the specs I have read online about the SL16, NO the SL16 does not fit under the F16 rules due to the SL16's jib is bigger by .05m^2

Here is a view of what I have. You can see at a glance that boat for boat, the SL 16 is disadvantaged against a F16. This is why I dont think it is a good idea for the F16 class to openly invite them into the F16 group. To me it would seem like we would be inviting an under powered boat to compete vs us, and guarantee the F16 victory over the SLs. I would invite a faster boat, not a slower boat. (This is speaking BOAT FOR BOAT. Without taking into account sailors or loose nuts on the tillers)

Lengths are measured in meters, weight in Kg and sail areas in squared meters. The blacked off areas are areas I am still working with the excell spreadsheet and are totally irrelevant to this discussion.

As you can see they are shorter, narrower and the mast is shorter as well. Their mainsail is smaller so is there spinnaker. There jib on the other hand is bigger but only by .05m^2. Also notice they are 45Kg heavier as well.

IMO boat for boat, not a very good match, I will be interested to see the DPN on this boat.

Robi, good points; nonetheless I would have no objection to the SL 16 joining in at the California event. I would imagine the racing could still be quite competitive. I'm sure the Blades won't mind racing me, even though my boat is under maximum width. No where in our formula rules is there any objection to sub-optimized boats. Gary on Altered sails a narrower beam boat too, I believe. And how about the Mozzies in South Africa and Australia--they're narrower and have shorter masts than allowed with the F16 formula, but obviously they're very fast and compete well against the Taipan F16s in Oz.

Thanks for that. I'm not a F16 sailor and have no vested interest either way. That said, I don't see how you could possibly accept the Sl16 into the F16 class.

AFAIK there are a couple of manufacturers that are supporting the class and have designed boats that do comply with the rules in every way. IMHO these manufacturers need to be nurtured for the class to grow and be respected. How can any of these builders have any confidence in the class when it chooses to welcome boats that "near enough" to the rules

Try rocking up to a F18 regatta with a jib that is "only a bit bigger", a Fireball or just about any other class for that matter and see how far it gets you <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just my $0.02 worth.... I'll go back to my regular lurking now.

Tiger Mike

I am getting very confused.

A Formula class consists of a bunch of different one-design boats that fit within that formula class.

For instance, a Formula 16 is not a class of boat, per se -- it is a racing class category that is open to any boat that measures in. Right?

Some boats are actually built to be optimized for the Formula 16 measurements. Lots of others are NOT, but can still race in the formula class if they want to and if they measure in. Doesn't matter whether they have smaller sails, are fatter, heavier, slower, whatever. If somebody wants to race in your class, and their boat measures in, you can't turn them away just because you think they won't be "competitive." That is their decision to make. And it is based upon the measurements that your class approved.

In the case of the F16 class, the class organizers decided to grandfather certain classes into the F16 class even though they were nonconforming. But that grandfathering was done based upon the stock specifications for those boats. Aside from those grandfathered, nonconforming classes, no other boat needs any official designation by the F16 Class in order to be able to race in the Formula 16 Class at a regatta. Just needs to measure in.

To give a radical example, the Hobie Wave is obviously an A-Class, and I don't see how it could be turned away from racing at an A-Class event even at the highest levels.

In summary, as I see it: A formula is not a specific boat -- it is a category of boats. And for some reason most formula classes do not seem to specify minimum length, or maximum weight.

As far as the SL 16, if the F16 Class officers are concerned about that .05 difference in jib size, just suggest that the manufacturer have their sailmaker shave off a sliver somewhere.

That is such a miniscule difference it is laughable. You should see the differences in sail area for "stock sails" on some production SMOD boats over the years. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Have you all had your jibs measured properly measured by an official measurer? Are you just ASSUMING that your jib measures in? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

While the SL16 technically doesn't fit within the F16 class rules, it is so deficient in all areas of physical measure save for the jib size, where it is BARELY in excess, that not allowing it to race as an "accepted" F16 boat is too literal an interpretation of the class rules (IMO).

That said, the discussion does raise the issue of how much variation from the rules should be allowed for boats that were not designed with the F16 class in mind, but are close enough to be considered members?

I think Mary is absolutely spot on here.

In all the sail measurements I've seen over the years it is not uncommon at all to see the sails cut 0.05 sq. mtr to small by sailmakers. They often do this to not have their sails made uncompliant by a measuring official who pulls harder on a measuring tapes then his collegues. And to allow for some stretching of the sail over time.

Most sailmakers try to end up at 0.03 sq. mtr. smaller the absolute limit. I think many may find that the SL 16 jib will actually measure in under F16 rules if the sail is measured when absolutely new.

I have seen alot of jibs that were between 0.05 and 0.15 sq. mtr. smaller then the absolute limit. There were even a few that were no less then 0.30 sq.mtr. smaller (some sailmakers can't read measuring tapes properly themselfs.)

So indeed while technically some are correct that 3.75 sq. mtr. jib is not a 3.70 sq. mtr. jib I think we may find that 3/4 of the SL16's measure in as F16's just the same.

Wouter

I don't understand the use of the words "deficient", and "accepted," and "members," in terms of a formula class. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I doubt if anyone would have the neck or nerve to take out a measuring tape, if a SL16 turned up at a F16 event <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Deficient, as in most measurements are well BELOW the class maximum allowances (while the one aspect which exceeds the class rules is so minutely in excess); Accepted, as in a boat not designed specifically to be in that class being allowed to race as if they were; and Members, as in grandfathering of non-class intended boats into the class based on closeness of proximity to complying with the overall rules. Wasn't the Spitfire grandfathered in along this line of thinking?

All boats that are "deficient," meaning less than optimal, have to be "accepted" for racing purposes whenever they show up for a regatta, because they fit within the class specs. You don't have to be a "member" of anything.

If I show up for a regatta with a Hobie 14 with spinnaker, I can sign up to sail in the F16 class if I want to, as a singlehander, as long as my sail area does not exceed the formula class limits; right?

It's not a matter of needing approval from the Formula class people. The approval is implicit in the formula itself.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Well, please don't take what I said as "clarification." I am just saying what I assume to be the case. I am waiting to be shot down. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Mary on the same token, if I show up to a F18 race and tell the RC I am racing as an F18 with a F16 honestly what do you think will happen? What will the members say about me occupying the starting line? What do you honestly think will happen if you show up at an A class event with a wave and inform them you are racing straight up? Seriously, what do you think will happen?

Like I have said numerous times. I am sure NO F16er will turn away a SL16 to race straight up. BUT, in my opinion the F16 as a class should not invite the SL16 to be part of the F16s.

Being narrower is not an issue. Look at the Taipans, they are just as fast as an optimized F16. But when you have a shorter mast, shorter hulls, smaller mainsail and spinnaker and you are 45Kg heavier. That is NOT even close to being an F16.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As there is no max. weight or min. sailarea or other min. constants, why not let a sub-optima boat race? I would gladly let the SL16 race, but would it be fun for the SL16 crew? Perhaps if they are lightweight?
The F-16 is too light to measure in as an F-18. Pour 80kgs (?) of epoxy into the hulls, and I think you will measure in. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think it would be a lot more fun than not racing at all. And that is pretty much the only other option except Portsmouth.
As Wouter said, these kids need practice for starting, mark roundings, and tactics. They won't get it in Portsmouth racing. And, of course, they can't race in Hobie regattas. The only class they really can fit into at all is the F16.
It is not a matter of whether they can win; it is a matter of PRACTICE for them.
Geesh! What is the problem?

Personally I would welcome any SL16 that shows up and if they beat me then I'll buy all their drinks for the next evening.

If I'm singlehanding and a Sl16 crew wants to see what it is all about then they can crew for me anytime. If they are skilled then can be my skipper as well and I'll do the hard work up front.

I say, lets do it !

Wouter

This seems like a lot of discusion for something that is pretty straight forward.

If the boat is measured and does not violate any formula limits then it is a fully compliant F16. Theoretical performance has nothing to do with it.

For non-national/World level racing, where full complaiance should be mandatory, bring on anyone who wants to race. A well sailed SL16 will end up beating a poorly sailed F16, and with the exception of a hand full of people in the world this will be the case on any boat.

I prefer to race everyone together to get the most out of the experience in everthing but the highest level events. There will be combinations of sailors and boats that are very evenly matched no matter what is sailed. For the higher level events where compliance is being observed if it does not measure then it is out. A F16 may be competitve with the F18s in theory but it is way under weight and will never be "in complaiance" to compete in a high level race. If a crew on a SL16 wants to sail at Zandvort and their equipment measures in then they are welcome. There is no "invite". For local stuff if you are getting wrapped up in who you sail with and what boat you sail, please leave or go get on a mono-hull.