there is a bit more to it than that.

The boat needs to be given room to make the course change to avoid the luffing boat, you cannot just sling the tiller over !

I am new to sailing and I don't know if I will ever understand all these rules. If all you guys have been sailing all this time, and there is still so many interpations of this one event.

airborne

Airborne,

there are so many intrepretations because we do not have enough facts to give a concise answer. There are many things missing from the example to give a full answer.

Like what?

1, Rounding to Port or Stbd
2, Did black gain the overlap from behind
3, Had either of you tacked recently
4, I'm assuming you were both sailing close-hauled on proper coure
5, There have not been any wind shifts in the last few seconds

Actually if the windward boat is correctly keeping clear, the leeward boat can just sling the tiller over. Check out your definition of "Keeping Clear"

"One boat keeps clear of another if the other can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and whent he boats are overlapped on the same tack, if the leeward boat can change course in both directions without immediately making contact with the windward boat."

That doesn't mean the leeward boat can plow straight into the side of the windward boat.

Tiger Mike

Mike,

I was assumin (again as we don't have the whole picture) that the boats were close enough so that the leaward boat could not head-up or tack without the windward boat taking avoiding action.

1. Rounding to Port
2. Look at the image, we were both in clear air, and the overlap was NOT gained from behind. We both sailed on port tack to the layline and tacked to starboard (both at the same time) our positions did not change. Positions do not change in tacticat unless you seriously mess up your controls.
3. No
4. Yes both close hauled on proper course.

dont worry just concentrate on the basics, and remember its usually faster and safer to not take chances.

In that case the windward boat should be protested for failing to keep clear. (read the definition quoted above - typed word for word from the rule book) Once the leeward boat goes past head to wind the windward/leeward rule switches off and it's an entirely different ball game though.

For a fun race I would have done exactly as Robi did. If I were fighting out a match racing worlds and I didn't have room to round up to windward without immediately hitting the windward boat I'd put up the red flag.

Tiger Mike

Hi Airborne,

Don't get too stressed over it. This is a theoretical discussion more than anything. Actually on the race track, sailing is not much different to driving your car around the town. There rules look daunting however in practice it's nearly always pretty straight forward in practice.

As somebody else mentioned, usually the fastest action is to avoid the situation all together - a smart tactical call to avoid traffic often gains you heeps. I know from personal experience, I'll often tack away from the fleet for 50m or so to get clean air and not get wrapped up in defending my position (getting sidetracked from the bigger picture). This works more often than not.

Unfortunately at marks, this is not always possible and that is where rules knowledge really helps. I have found "The Rules Book 2005 - 2008" (Eric Twiname, revised by Bryan Willis) to be invaluable. The front half has all sorts of common situations you might find yourself in with explainations of the rules and the back half has the ISAF rules in their raw form which can be a little difficult to digest, especially if you are new to sailing.

Cheers,
Tiger Mike

But you say



So you cannot just sling the tiller over, UNLESS you are going to clear the other boat anyway.

You have to sail in such a was as the boat CAN keep clear, you can only protest (and win) if you can PROVE that you gave them time to react. In a laser, this is not very long, but in a cat it is longer as they take longer to turn.

You cannot put the tiller over at will and expect the boat to windward to keep clear, they have to have time to react to the movement of the boat below, the windward boat can only react to a change of course, and so must be given time to do so.

IF red can pinch up enough why can't black do the same? This would allow red to make the mark and black could round slower and aft of red.

Also, if you force red to tack what is the punnishment for you. perhaps a 360 would be worth doing as he would have worse.

I thank you for the advice. I will look into getting those books.

airborne <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I was referring to rule 14. If things are so close that I can't round up without immediately hitting the windward boat then you are bound by that rule not to hit the boat although.... I would consider giving it a very light touch up to re-inforce the point (note light - not to cause injury or damage!).

If you are nearly head to wind when you strike the windward boat you are probably in a bit of a pickle because you probably didn't immediately strike the windward boat and you were not satisfying rule 16 (Changing course)




I thought we were talking about boats in very close quarters where the leeward boat was unable to round up without hitting the windward boat??? In this situation the rule is crystal clear - keeping clear does allow the leeward boat to change course without having to worry about immediately collecting the windward boat. How more simple can we make it???

Tiger Mike

How so ?

You still cannot just slam the tiller over and expect the other boat to move. You still have to give the other boat time to avoid you (by luffing up-to but not past head to wind, when you are "forcing" your right-of way (or right to change course), the other boat still only has to react to your changes of course, they do not have to expect them. However, as soon as you start your luff, the other boat has to start to react, but they have to have timne to react, and ther has to be room for them to react.

I've had a very long chat about this to an international judge, and his advice was NEVER hit the other boat, this instantly implies there was not enought time for the other boat to move out of the way. He was also saying that it is good to make it clear what you intend to do, before you do it. The other boat still does not have to react until you actually do it, but it strenthens YOUR case at a later date.

Ok - one last time..... When an overlap exists between two boats on the same tack the windward boat must keep clear. The definition of keeping clear is:

One boat keeps clear of another if the other can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and when the boats are overlapped on the same tack, if the leeward boat can change course in both directions without immediately making contact with the windward boat.

Note the words in bold. This definition explicitly puts the onus on the windward boat to stay out of the way and give the leeward boat room to maneuver. If leeward can't maneuver because the windward boat is in the way it is not keeping clear and should be protested as such. And yes I would possibly give it a (light) tap (being very careful not to cause any injury or damage) to re-inforce things for when we do get to the protest room.

Any keep clear boat who tries to rely on rule 16 in this situation might want to re-think their strategy and do what they are obligated to do - keep clear <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tiger Mike

Excellent, you have finally understood.

The immediately is the critical thing here, you are far enough apart that the contact will not be instant, so giving the other boat time to avoid.

QED.

Duh - that's what I've been saying all along (several times). The windward boat is obligated to keep that gap. Shakes head......

Tiger Mike